Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

apologies for the errant 'as'

How is this different from the position of the transgender activists you condemn?

Style as rather than substance?

Because it is not going to happen is it? I am not going to go back to using the gents

You are telling us that your desire to be in women's spaces overrides women's consent or otherwise to have you there. How is this different from the position of the transgender activists you condemn?

At the risk of being unimaginative and repeating myself, your position is very clear Kay and also your motivations.

Bubonic....
I do not tell anyone to shut up.I "silence no women" as the cliché has it. I say that it always has been ,and always will be, impossible to get transsexual women ( and some who are not TS, ) out of the ladies loos. This is a fact. Simply, a cast iron fact. It is impossible to police, even if it were lawful to try to do so.

The things you say on these matters , Miranda, may curry favour in the eyes of some on such as this thread, they cut no ice with transsexual people ,or with government

And, as we are all very clear now, those are the only significant participants in this discussion

Bit odd therefore to choose to try to control things here.
(well its not of course, but better that actual priorities are made clear rather than assumed ones)

The things you say on these matters , Miranda, may curry favour in the eyes of some on such as this thread, they cut no ice with transsexual people ,or with government.

And, as we are all very clear now, those are the only significant participants in this discussion.

KayM2said, and I quote:

Because it is not going to happen is it? I am not going to go back to using the gents. We are breaking no law in the ladies, even if we have no GRC. Our GRC says we are female under the law " for all practical purposes". We are not going away. We have always been there., we will always been here.

So - women, just shut up! KayM2 says, "What I say will be!!!" When women are saying No to men in women's single-sex spaces - KayM2 refuses to acknowledge us and our refusal.

Wow.

Yeah, but no thanks - you're no ally to women, are you? You told us to shut up and accept men in women's single-sex spaces.

Way to go.

Miranda; I think you may have made a mistake; you have stated that a quote of what I said in my earlier post is photocopied from "page 23" of some manual. I say mistake; it looks like a deliberate attempt to smear me.

It’s a joke.

Lighten up, fellah.

Miranda; I think you may have made a mistake; you have stated that a quote of what I said in my earlier post is photocopied from "page 23" of some manual. I say mistake; it looks like a deliberate attempt to smear me.

Miranda; I see you are still keen on using inflammatory exaggeration.;

I have stated , for example map, a fact, ie that I am entitled to use the women' loos. I would be committing no crime if I did not have a GRC and female birth certificate, but I have, and I am entitled to use those loos under UK law. But you describe me saying that, , and saying that it is practical terms impossible to " get the trans people out of the loos" , as " taunting". I'm stating facts.

So these threads are further encouraged to go down the road to cloud cuckoo land, in " campaigning for " third spaces" . This just will not happen because:
(a) there is not the money, and
( b) there is not sufficient demand and
(c) there are no votes in it.

The things you say on these matters , Miranda, may curry favour in the eyes of some on such as this thread, they cut no ice with transsexual people ,or with government.

You could campaign for additional mixed spaces for any trans person plus anybody else who is happy to share. That would stand a much greater chance of success.

YY.

Your views on these matters are unworkable , held by a tiny minorityand totally outside what is asked of us by common sense and UK and European Law.

A tiny minority which is always going to be eroded by people peeling off as they become more integrated., more merged in, more acceptable in appearance.

So you come here, taunt women about how you use women’s spaces and have no intention of rethinking this, say one thing then clear as day pretend it didn’t happen, attack myself and others with non-specific accusations of being mean, and post some stuff like the above which has been photocopied from page 23 of ‘The TRA Handbook 2018’.

I have no idea whether such a campaign would be successful, I'm just continuously astonished that nobody's even tried.

Probably it would depend on what you campaigned for.

We've just been asked whether we should let anybody who wants one get a GRC and hence a new birth certificate. Government estimates of the trans popultation in the consultation document were 200,000 to 500,000. I've heard higher estimates. No clear definition has been given of what trans means in 2018.

You could campaign for spaces specifically for those with a GRC or just those who have had surgery, or just those with a diagnosis or whatever - that probably wouldn't work.

You could campaign for additional mixed spaces for any trans person plus anybody else who is happy to share. That would stand a much greater chance of success.

This is not women's problem, it's yours.

not be anywhere near

Soz.

If we get back to only considering transsexual people we are only talking a few thousand people. If we said 10,000 and given the population of the UK is 60million then that's 1 in 600 people. Is that really practical for such a minority ?

Don't know. Don't care. I strongly believe that males who do not think women's consent applies to them should be anywhere near women's spaces. I couldn't give a flying fuck about diagnoses or surgeries. I differentiate between males on behaviour and sense of entitlement.

Kay this is an innacurate summary though I understand you would want to delete it, it wasn't civil or in the spirit of the board.

It is indeed. Kay - for once in your life, tell the bloody truth. You posted an extreme and vile personal attack and had it withdrawn before it could be deleted. I kept a record of it. I will not have you minimising it now.

I'd still like to know what is stopping trans people campaigning for your own spaces

If we get back to only considering transsexual people we are only talking a few thousand people. If we said 10,000 and given the population of the UK is 60million then that's 1 in 600 people. Is that really practical for such a minority ?

I would clarify that I have a blue badge and am disabled (and no it's not gender dysphoria) so I do have a right to use disabled spaces.

Fair enough if you need to use disabled spaces because you are disabled.

I'd still like to know what is stopping trans people campaigning for your own spaces.

So I asked the MNHQ to delete my post, not because I regretted the sentiments , but because it is not kind to speculate about someone else's inner world on a forum, even though everyone's " inner world view" drives their thoughts an actions.

Anyone who saw my post will be well aware of my argument that the ideas that MY espouses do not represent informed opinion. By which I mean those of specializing psychiatrists and most long term most op transsexual men and women.

Kay this is an innacurate summary though I understand you would want to delete it, it wasn't civil or in the spirit of the board.

Anyone who saw my post will be well aware of my argument that the ideas that MY espouses do not represent informed opinion. By which I mean those of specializing psychiatrists and most long term most op transsexual men and women.

Informed opinion on what Kay? What a woman is? What rights women should be prepared to give up? Why would psychiatrists and post op TS be the experts on that? What about the women and girls?

This is the feminist topic on a parenting forum. The only reason we're discussing trans issues at all is because they're having a huge detrimental impact on our rights and on our children's health and wellbeing. Beyond that we really aren't all that fascinated.

Miranda is a great ally to women (cheers Miranda ) and that's all I care about.

Miranda; as usual you have some well rehearsed one liners; here's my one liners in answer.

Yes we are different to the TRAs.

Yes, we show we are different to the TRAs in everything we do and say, including signing Times letters condemning the TRA actions .

No, we do not subscribe to YOUR own view of how we should "show we are different".

Your views on these matters are unworkable , held by a tiny minority**and totally outside what is asked of us by common sense and UK and European Law.

** A tiny minority which is always going to be eroded by people peeling off as they become more integrated., more merged in, more acceptable in appearance.

*I also know I will never be a man either

What does it mean to you to ‘be a man’?*

The short answer is that I will never come close to being what society would expect of someone being biologically male. Society says that the interests I have, the way I act and apparently the way I think would be expected of someone who was biologically female.

Gender stereotyping is the biggest problem we face. Indeed if as much effort was put into getting rid of gender stereotypes rather than reinforce them and labelling people all over the place as transgender we would be in a far far better place.

Just like women fought for our spaces, disabled people fought extremely hard for their spaces

I would clarify that I have a blue badge and am disabled (and no it's not gender dysphoria) so I do have a right to use disabled spaces.