Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

This is an insight I have had over the last few months. I think of all the
psychological gatekeeping that Kay and Cant always stress they had. Perhaps if it wasn't solely about whether transition would be good for them but also safe for women and had included an assessment of attitudes towards women, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Exemplified by James Barrett's comment at the successful appeal to enable a male convicted of very serious violent and sexual offences to be transferred to the female prison estate:

This was a very important case and set the precedent which enabled Karen Jones to be in the position to sexually assault vulnerable female prisoners. The women were locked in by the state with Jones a male prolific predatory offender.

Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital, who had also known the Claimant for many years, explained why living in role in female accommodation was required:

"it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

James Barrett described in the Guardian article above, "is the lead clinician at the Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic, the largest and oldest in the world, which receives 1,400 NHS patients a year, a figure that is doubling every five years. About one in five referrals end up having genital surgery"

This is misogyny and sexism unchallenged and endorsed by the courts:
there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict.

It has to be recognised the role played by some older people who are transsexuals & part of transgender communities. They are prominant and influential TRAs:

From the 2013 Guardian article , important background & interviews including Stephen Whittle, Christine Burns, Sarah Brown, Paris Lees, James Barrett:

Christine Burns:
"In the 90s, when she was chair of the Women's Supper Club of the local Conservative party association in Cheshire, she quietly joined Press for Change. Even then, the new activists dared not be openly trans. "The thing that held us back in the 1990s campaigning was that fear of being out," admits Burns. Eventually, she came out in 1995; she jokes that she realised she was more embarrassed to be a member of the Conservative party than openly transsexual.

Much of their [Press for Change] campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues."

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

The LibDem Layla Moran who was one of the MPs clearly influenced by TRAs propaganda acknowledged the influence/help she had received from Helen Belcher (Trans Media Watch)

James Kirkup comment:
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/

But before I " go", and leave all this behind, me

Will this be your fourth or your fifth grandiose flounce-and-return? I forget.

I suspect you being transgender has little to do with this, just as I suspect Miranda's attitude has little to do with being transgender. And everything to do with you as people.

This is an insight I have had over the last few months. I think of all the
psychological gatekeeping that Kay and Cant always stress they had. Perhaps if it wasn't solely about whether transition would be good for them but also safe for women and had included an assessment of attitudes towards women, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Society says that the interests I have, the way I act and apparently the way I think would be expected of someone who was biologically female.

If you think your behaviour on this board has, at any point, been typically female, Kay, I suggest putting yourself through the Freedom Programme. It may provide some insight.

kay your respect for women is very low, isn't it? It's always horribly revealing how the identifying as a woman part is so skin deep as to be irrelevant.

I suspect you being transgender has little to do with this, just as I suspect Miranda's attitude has little to do with being transgender. And everything to do with you as people.

Plus, of course, Miranda has actually listened to feminists. And feminism. Miranda understands, only too well, exactly what stereotyping means and how it is used. Which has to be fairly hard, for someone who is trans. Because it utterly relies on stereotyping.

You are just offering false hopes to a few decent and guilt ridden trans people and a larger but still electorally insignificant group of determined feminists.

Twelves million unique users per month. A twelve fold increase in one year in the number of women accessing the site via this very board. (And there are literally dozens of boards on mumsnet.)

I'm just informing you, so you know you're wrong about that. But you calling women's concerns insignificant is just the same old bloody sexism that gave rise to transgenderism in the first place.

Recent BMJ letter by medical clinicians:

Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

open access link here:
www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

Oh so very telling.

Imagine deciding on your own to enter a prison cell, sinking back into a bunk, and saying to the other inmates, “Ah, this is the life.” Imagine then turning to politicians and saying, “Hey, let me represent prisoners to you. Really, I know quite a bit about prison life and actually, some parts of it great, Love the uniforms!”

And knowing you could leave the prison anytime you wanted to.

I note with interest the number of times Kay said “I am entitled” while explaining that Kay doesn’t give a hoot what women think of male encroachment on female spaces.

I note with interest the number of times Kay said “I am entitled” while explaining that Kay doesn’t give a hoot what women think of male encroachment on female spaces.

Telling.

Good work Miranda, as always.

What have we done to people? That people believe a woman is a woman because of their ' interests' . I am angry but I am sad that as a society this is what we have done.

Some people may believe this.
some people may believe 'there is a way of thinking' expected of only a woman's brain.

Sexism still exists.
So too homophobia.
Some people internalise these more than others.

However this video makes clear what a woman is:

ht Posie Parker

What have we done to people? That people believe a woman is a woman because of their ' interests' . I am angry but I am sad that as a society this is what we have done.

Society says that the interests I have, the way I act and apparently the way I think would be expected of someone who was biologically female

Oh good lord

What are women's interests, and how do women act and think? You know that's stereotyping, don't you?

You think women and girls want and need segregation because of our interest and the way we think?

Boom!

The short answer is that I will never come close to being what society would expect of someone being biologically male.
Society says that the interests I have, the way I act and apparently the way I think would be expected of someone who was biologically female.

Gender stereotyping is the biggest problem we face.

What are women's interests, and how do women act and think? You know that's stereotyping, don't you?

You think women and girls want and need segregation because of our interest and the way we think?

But before I " go", and leave all this behind, me, I have vowed that I will encourage everyone I know to make it clear to those feminist people who see your stance as " the acceptable face of transgenderism " that it isn't, and cannot be, anything other than a very fringe aspect of the whole , bigger picture

Kay
Feminist people?
really?

Women, adult human females.

wow!

KayM2, your reaction is so typically male flouncing, it makes me laugh!

Whatever your personal identity: if you are male-bodied (regardless of silicone breasts, fantasy in your head etc) then you are a man.

Women do not want men in women's single-sex facilities and services. Sorry if that is a blow to your ego, but that is reality.

Though as jokes are not part of your usual manner

Now you really have gone way too far.

I am not going to go back to using the gents

I loved an anecdote by one of letter's signatories, Fionne Olander, about emerging from a cubicle in the gents and being faced with a bloke at the urinals.

He looked confused and asked her whether he was in the Guy's toilets.
She replied: "Yes. I'm a guy"
He said: "Well you're a very pretty guy"
She dried her hands, said 'thank you' and walked out, head high.

That's my kind of transwoman and she gets a from me.

So does that bloke at the urinals

Like you saying " liken up, fellah"? That is a joke?

How witty!
Though as jokes are not part of your usual manner, I can't help thinking that saying it was " a joke" has more to do with avoiding MNHQ censure than a sense of humour.

Anyway, Miranda old chap ( and apparently that is not an insult to you) I have an aim here. I'll not be around long. , as I have pretty much accepted the advice of my ex wife , my sister and my daughter to get out of this area of activity as it means that I am dealing with very odd people, and I'm quite odd enough anyway.

But before I " go", and leave all this behind, me, I have vowed that I will encourage everyone I know to make it clear to those feminist people who see your stance as " the acceptable face of transgenderism " that it isn't, and cannot be, anything other than a very fringe aspect of the whole , bigger picture.

I was happy to sign the letter, because I do believe that the things done to Prof Freedman ( and others ) are bloody appalling, and I would hope to see prosecutions.

But the stance you take ,which ( I hope I have got this near enough right) says that we are feminine males, and should be living as males, is unworkable. And it involves a sort of mental gymnastics to square circles ,that is incompatible with what is known. It just won't work.

It has never worked. and it cannot work. You are just offering false hopes to a few decent and guilt ridden trans people and a larger but still electorally insignificant group of determined feminists.

Which makes less time and energy available for more crucial fights that CAN be won .

KayM2: so you are saying that despite what women tell you about not wanting men in women's single-sex spaces - you are still going to disregard women's voices. You are still going to force your way into women's single-sex spaces. Despite lots of women saying No to you.

As I said, way to go.

I do not tell anyone to shut up.I "silence no women" as the cliché has it. I say that it always has been ,and always will be, impossible to get transsexual women ( and some who are not TS, ) out of the ladies loos. This is a fact. Simply, a cast iron fact. It is impossible to police, even if it were lawful to try to do so.

You’re demonstration zero respect or empathy for women.