Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

"can't come to terms with that fact that feeling that discomfort doesn't make them somehow not-male,"

If it was only "discomfort" then there wouldnt be an issue. Discomfort I can deal with.

Without any common frame of reference I could never explain to you what it feels and how it affects you. Taking modern bullshit out you only have to look to genuine suicide statistics amongst the true, medicalised transsexual people. Thats not "discomfort".

Transtrenders have trivialised GD. In suits them to do so because then they can claim to have it too.

I read all the posts and whilst I dont always agree I certain take them on board.

Right now the whole argument is going nowhere and I am greatly disturbed by these apparent 100 fold increase in transgenderism that is growing by the day. The avalanche has started and Im not sure how it can be stopped. Arguments aside the fact is my identity has been stolen and I am expected just to step back and accept that

By way of analogy I sometimes read other boards on Mumsnet about parenting.
I can't have children as a consequence of the total hysterectomy neccessary to save my life following a gyny cancer diagnosis.

Sometimes I feel naturally feel angry or upset about this and sometimes I might feel strongly I have something relevent to say on a particular thread.

Aside from civility though, having empathy & respect for others who are not connected with my own circumstances along with self-awareness means that I do not impose my own (valid) feelings in places where frankly its innapropriate. It also wouldn't have helped me come to a healthy place in my own recovery.

If you steal something, and then someone else later steals it from you, is that theft-ception?

Interesting that Debbie Hayton, who is routinely fawned over, has a fairly similar 'I'm entitled to...' viewpoint to Kay, but is a lot more careful with their language to avoid upsetting you lot.

Oh, don't think many of us haven't noticed. So Kay was a conflict prone personality on trans forums too then?

Trust me, Lang, that comment wasn't directed at you!

I have a good mate who was born and raised in Germany. She has no desire to invade Poland, or to commit genocide. Like most German children she was brought up to be fully aware of her country's 20th Century history and has as a result come to terms with being part of a group of people whose members historically committed atrocities. If the Germans as a nation can manage that I really don't see why males who're uncomfortable with many aspects of masculinity can't come to terms with that fact that feeling that discomfort doesn't make them somehow not-male, nor do they have any right to deal with that discomfort by trying to force the rest of the population to pretend that they're something other than male.

As this is discussion and MN are keen that it is civilised, might you consider reading and listening to more of the posts please?

I read all the posts and whilst I dont always agree I certain take them on board.

Right now the whole argument is going nowhere and I am greatly disturbed by these apparent 100 fold increase in transgenderism that is growing by the day. The avalanche has started and Im not sure how it can be stopped. Arguments aside the fact is my identity has been stolen and I am expected just to step back and accept that. Im being told "yes I know you have struggled with mental health issues and gender dysphoria and been hospitalised for it but Im the same as you because I get turned on wearing a bra". Unlike many of those I meet today who called themselves trans, I dont actually WANT to be this way. I hate being like this. I get ridiculed and abused every single day and threatened with physical and sexual violence. I am how I am because its been the only way I have found that allows me to function. Ive had dozens of counselling sessions, psychotherapy, CBT, scheme therapy, psycho-sexual counselling etc.. I accept Im not a woman and never will be but in societies eyes I'm not a man either. Personally I am deeply hurt when I am swept up in the generalisations that say "if youre not a woman youre a man and men and violent abusive misogynists" - that couldnt be further from the truth.

The only solution in my view has to be a continued if not increased medicalisation of transsexualism and work to abolish gender stereotyping. When a girl likes football she is told that "girls dont play football" and in the currently climate is being led down the road of transgenderism. Equally when a boy wants to wear make up he is told that "only girls wear make up".

In an ideal world we are all free to behave socially whatever way we want. I can wear make up without abuse. I can wear a dress without abuse. I can go out with my boyfriend without abuse. I am me, not whats between my legs and I should be free to present how I feel comfortable without gender stereotyping.

Seems Kay causes as much conflict here as she did on trans forums from what I hear. It never ends well.

Interesting that Debbie Hayton, who is routinely fawned over, has a fairly similar 'I'm entitled to...' viewpoint to Kay, but is a lot more careful with their language to avoid upsetting you lot.

I agree, AAK. I just wondered whether cant would approve of such gatekeeping/screening procedures that would provide added protection to women.

I really see no reason why women's spaces should include males who are aware that other men can be shitheads sometimes. Also that sounds a bit like if I were to argue that I shouldn't be considered British because I think colonialism was terrible.

You don't get to opt out of demographics that you belong to just because the actions of some other people within those demographics make you feel shame, or don't feel like things you would ever do yourself.

cantgetridofthekids - I suggested above that a psychological assessment of attitudes to women should form part of the medical gatekeeping that you tell us you support. Do you think this would be a good idea and would help assure that transitioning transsexuals do not bring male entitlement and harmful behaviour patterns into women's spaces?

I detest everything that men stand for and represent and I want nothing to do with the attitudes, the misogyny, the chauvinism....

Oh, the irony.

I got accused earlier of gender stereotyping so I find this somewhat a generalisation

It's not nice to make people roll their eyes this hard. Migraines hurt, you know.

cantgetridofthekids
As this is discussion and MN are keen that it is civilised, might you consider reading and listening to more of the posts please?

*Men will always spy on, expose themselves to, assault, rape, hurt, abuse, dismiss, dominate and even kill women. It is impossible to police even if it is lawful to do so.

Males will always be dominant.
Males will always act without women's consent, even if this is crossing women's most intimate personal boundaries.
Males will keep going right ahead no matter who says no or how no is expressed.
Males will ensure women's rights to boundaries are politically deprioritised and poorly resources.*

I got accused earlier of gender stereotyping so I find this somewhat a generalisation but I do absolutely accept that gender stereotypes aside women have been downtrodden, oppressed and abused for centuries.

Of course women need to stand up for their rights and move society forward but right now what is happening is that genuine transsexual people are being asked to relinquish what they fought hard for because the modern transgender umbrella hijacked it.

The Gender Recognition Act has been in force 14 years now and was never really an issue until those who it clearly did not apply to co-opted it for their own for a selfish agenda.

R0wantrees quote earlier...
"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles"
is absolutely totally correct and this is certainly what I and the transsexual people that I know have been saying for years. Transsexualism / Gender Dysphoria / Gender Identity Disorder MUST remain medicalised within a multi disciplinary environment with a set diagnostic pathway as laid down in the DSM.

Unlike some of the transgender people I meet, presenting as the opposite sex is not something I enjoy - it is as of this time the only coping mechanism I have to deal with GD, a condition I would not wish on my worst enemy. Unfortunately we are seeing a shift in some environments where a diagnosis becomes simply an affirmation of the clients own desires irrespective of motivation. Worse still we are seeing a shift that to some being transgender rather than being a medical condition is simply an alternative lifestyle which one can establish on a whim.

I wholeheartedly agree that the transtrender, demedicalisation, self id bull shit needs to stop. We need to go back to 15-20 years ago where you would be lucky if there were only 5,000 transsexual people in the country who sought medical diagnosis and treatment. For those people the GRA, in basically its current form serves a purpose and I personally beleive it unfair that I am asked to relinquish that. Fine, Im not a woman and I never will be a woman but I am not "just another man"; I detest everything that men stand for and represent and I want nothing to do with the attitudes, the misogyny, the chauvinism....

If you go back a few years I was initially inclined to take the "two groups, transexuals are fine and we can work with them, men for whom transition means putting on a wig and a garter belt not fine" approach.

I was still in this mindset when I completed the GRA consultation, but since then the scales have fallen from my eyes, and the trans widows' stories have been a big revelation to me.
Every time we make concessions to males, a woman gets ignored.

I have to say that watching Kay' male pattern entitlement on this (and other threads) has been quite eye opening. And has been useful in helping me refine my views, although possibly not in the way Kay intended.

'in' any context

Kay
You say " it always has been ,and always will be, impossible to get transsexual women ( and some who are not TS, ) out of the ladies loos. This is a fact. Simply, a cast iron fact. It is impossible to police, even if it were lawful to try to do so."

This is the same argument for against trying to end male domination of women and girls is any context- it simply seems futile.

Men will always spy on, expose themselves to, assault, rape, hurt, abuse, dismiss, dominate and even kill women. It is impossible to police even if it is lawful to do so.

Males will always be dominant.
Males will always act without women's consent, even if this is crossing women's most intimate personal boundaries.
Males will keep going right ahead no matter who says no or how no is expressed.
Males will ensure women's rights to boundaries are politically deprioritised and poorly resources.
Therefore

Women saying no to men is futile.

But guess what Kay? Women are pretty fucked of with being dominated and disrespected by males. This collected fucked off-ness is called feminism. Males telling women that feminism is futile is nothing new. But you know what? We have no other choice. If we don't fight, even if the odds look stacked up against us, our only other option is to give in. I won't be doing that any time soon.

Familiarity, I'm afraid. Specifically, familiarity with the same old Duluth wheel behaviour patterns

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Wow, Kay really is determined to show us who they are, huh? Some of us believed you the first time...

This, though? This was funny, and I needed a laugh.

Though as jokes are not part of your usual manner

Now you really have gone way too far.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that surgery and hormones would be a cure for dysfunctional and/or sexist behavior, honestly. In retrospect that seems like a very silly thing to have assumed.

I was also where AAK was 2-3 years ago. And, as she says, what's changed? Familiarity, I'm afraid. Specifically, familiarity with the same old Duluth wheel behaviour patterns. If you had them before transition, it seems, you keep them after. Perhaps if all this lady training that goes on included behaviour modification, we could talk. Otherwise, I'm afraid it's a flat no from me.

What it really comes down to is this: if you’re going to claim to be different to TRAs, then you actually have to be different to TRAs.

Indeed. If you go back a few years I was initially inclined to take the "two groups, transexuals are fine and we can work with them, men for whom transition means putting on a wig and a garter belt not fine" approach. I wanted to try to work with transsexuals to resolve this mess. You know what happened to change my mind? I actually talked to transsexuals, and much to my dismay discovered that for every Miranda or Hamster there are at least 100 Kay's or Jaycee's. I started paying attention to what people were saying made them women, and it's been sexist as hell from the very beginning, all the way back to the period during the 60s that some now try to frame as an example of getting things right. I started to notice the sense of entitlement, and the selfishness, and the insistence that what makes transsexuals happy is ultimately far more important than any sacrifice women have to make in order to make that happen. I noticed the tendency to speak in the language of commands - "you have to", "we're going to do it anyway so you need to start from there" - and the language of manipulation - "I'm old so can't you just let me?", "Can't you just be kind (to transsexuals, certainly not to yourself or to other women and girls)?" - and I started putting the pieces together.

So, no, we can't assume that there are two clear groups and everyone in the TS group is a decent person who has empathy for women, because time after time TS people prove that it's not true. And no, we're not going to pretend that it is true just because you'll throw a tantrum if we don't.