"A quarter of uk adults think that marital sex without consent is not rape."

My solution, if I was put in charge tomorrow, would be to have all rapes prosecuted, tried, judged and sentenced by women.

Good idea, but I think we need to narrow that group even more.
To women who never had a sexual relationship with a man. Or perhaps at least to those who are currently single.

A lot of women are in denial about what was/is done to them.

Still not a perfect solution, since some women start victim-blaming before they themselves become victims, in order to feel safe, but it would be a start.

My solution, if I was put in charge tomorrow, would be to have all rapes prosecuted, tried, judged and sentenced by women. Men generally (not specifically, but generally) just don't get it. Come at me if you like, you won't change my mind

Sorry but that is just nonsense. Female judges and defence counsel are just as bad. There was a female judge in the Irish rugby trial. A female judge in Scotland gave a non custodial sentence in a case involving a man who admitted raping a 12-year-old girl (ie too young to consent) because she thought there were exceptional circumstances. These are not isolated examples.

I can't remember his name but the most scathing comments about rapists and heaviest sentencing have been made by an English male judge.

As someone upthread said, framing the question around "penetration without consent" might get a more useful set of responses. Rape is a loaded word, people understand it as a monstrous crime, see it in the context of war, stranger attack, abduction, murder. It's not surprising that people don't want to think of their brother, father, friend or indeed husband as someone who could do that, someone who is capable of horrific, life-destroying actions. It's easier to go straight to denial rather than unpick the challenging societal norms that allow this to happen.

I think that sadly all we can do is change the narrative with young people and try to effect meaningful changes in attitudes over time. My solution, if I was put in charge tomorrow, would be to have all rapes prosecuted, tried, judged and sentenced by women. Men generally (not specifically, but generally) just don't get it. Come at me if you like, you won't change my mind.

I know Hestia, anything else and people would shake their heads at his ridiculous logic. I do wonder if he's that convinced he had the right that he would admit it in court as long as they dallied around the word rape.

He now plays for sympathy that he was married to a woman who later came out as gay, and it is sickening how DW's family fawn all over him and tell him how difficult it must have been for him. They know what he did to her, they simply just don't believe it could have been rape.

For example, most people would agree that a woman who was jogging through a park and subsequently attacked by a stranger, beaten and seriously sexually assaulted was "raped". But when they as asked to consider the possibility that a husband having sex with his drunk wife, was guilty to the same level of culpability as the stranger in the park, most can't reconcile the two. That's the problem. It's not a misunderstanding of what the word rape means. It's the idea that all men are guilty to the same degree, regardless of circumstances.

I largely suspect that the figures are as they are because it is so common for women to be raped or have coercive sex that their responses were influenced by this. Otherwise that would be an awful lot of respondents who would have the dawning realisation that they themselves were either rapists or victims of rape.

Eg "Well that can't be rape because I/my husband do/does that and I'm/he's not a rapist!!"

Sorry should say this was the Irish rugby players rape trial.

Which was an absolute fucking farce as was ched Evans'

Let's face it if you're a mc+ white guy you can rape whoever the hell you like and really don't need to worry too much about potential consequences.

If you're rich/famous, both it could be captured on fucking cctv with the victim CLEARLY defending herself and screaming NO and they'd STILL get away with it!

"The only thing out of that shit show that gives me hope is that younger people are less likely to buy in to rape myths than their older counterparts" not necessarily I've overheard a few of dds friends coming out with appalling tripe, and I've seen other surveys of youngsters views that had appalling results, and comments on FB when there's a big trial on are shocking!

“"It is appalling that a third of men think if a woman has flirted on a date she is asking for it,” Coffey said. “These are all potential future jurors." I think it's worse than that, these are potential or actual rapists!

"So this is grim ... not just because those people might sit on juries." Exactly!

"More than half of people thought a woman who had never had sex would suffer more harm from rape than any other woman who was raped, while 11% believed that a woman who had had a lot of sexual partners would be less harmed if she wwas raped compared with any other woman." This makes me REALLY angry! The woman's "morals" being used to justify a rape being "less harmful" utter bollocks!!

In my opinion we need to start with judges. Some of the judges commentaries on rapes are disgusting! Make them all undertake me courses to disabuse them of their WRONG beliefs, ban them from making victim blaming statements, personally I think rape should carry a mandatory sentence of at least 25 years with no parole and full life tariff if ANY violence involved.

Stop this bullshit of what the victim was wearing, their sex life prior to the rape being AT ALL admissible in court, it's completely irrelevant.

BUT prior similar behaviour by the accused should be admitted it IS relevant!

"I think there needs to be some sort of massive public education campaign on consent and rape." Totally agree!

More adverts similar to this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RzDr18UYO18

"How is suggesting that consent is implied within the confines of an intimate relationship "rapey"?" You REALLY need to ask? Because women are no longer legally male possessions, our bodies are not theirs, we have autonomy and consent is NOT implied it must be sought including within a relationship.

"keeping her stuck in a situation where she cannot escape because she is financially reliant on him and scared he will harm the kids if you leave him." Even worse now due to austerity policies taking us back to the fucking dark ages where women are trapped in joint UC claims with their abusers, where to get the benefits they NEED to FEED the children created by the abuse they have to PROVE the abuse! Putting them AND the children at more risk! It's barbaric!

"When you love and fancy each other to bits, surely you can assume consent is implied unless told otherwise?" No! Down that road lies more abuse victims.

"DH would of course have stopped immediately if I wasn’t in the mood." You were lucky enough to not be with someone abusive. You sound like a confident assertive woman. For other women their dh starting is pressure, coercion that they don't feel powerful enough to refuse. The law doesn't exist for the couples where there isn't abuse, it exists for those where there is.

"the judge directs the jury about what constitutes rape, reasonable belief etc before they go off to make their verdict." Judges are among the worst rape apologists going!

"Judge Lindsey Kushner QC said women were entitled to "drink themselves into the ground" but their "disinhibited behaviour" could put them in danger." "

"A 12-year-old rape victim has spoken of her devastation after her attacker was spared jail because a judge thought she had been an "active participant" in sex with him."

"Mr justice males...said the pair had taken advantage of the woman's inebriated state, she had been 'extremely foolish' for getting so drunk"

"The judge said they must carefully assess the evidence and determine if someone “may have tailored [their] evidence accordingly”." This was the Irish

"And she explained a series of inconsistencies in case and asked the jury to decide if any of the inconsistencies could amount to “a lie”"

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby-union/paddy-jackson-rape-trial-charges-12261321

While judges are still so shitty to victims we've no chance!

Judges like this need to be stripped of their credentials, such actions are completely unacceptable!

DW's ex-husband is adamant that he never raped her, but he's admitted knowing she hated sex and that he "had to" hold her down.

Not in front of a court of law, I suppose? That'd be rather interesting to watch.

Imagine that happening with any other crime. "No, I didn't steal anything! I just took it and put it in my pocket and didn't pay for it! I had to be careful to not get caught because they don't like people taking stuff without paying. Totally different!"

It doesn't surprise me.

As PP touched on, there seems to be something in the wording too.

DW's ex-husband is adamant that he never raped her, but he's admitted knowing she hated sex and that he "had to" hold her down.

Nope, not engaging any further. @MNHQ could you deal with this one, please?

I concur. Please don't give this... person Kleenex ammunition.

If I had thought that marriage implied permanently waiving my right to not consent in any given instance I'd never have gotten married. What a repulsive idea.

@babdoc you can have sex that is not rape without obtaining consent. So long as the other party does consent (even if you don’t know or believe that) it cannot be rape. So if you and your husband were happy with this kind of arrangement and willing then it isn’t rape.

"Presumably one marries a partner with the specific intention of shagging them?"

Not when I don't want to.

Right now I'm drinking wine while he watches Die Hard. I don't want to shag him now and our marriage certificate doesn't impel me to.

The problem with rape is that it is both s legal term and a word in general. I’m sure that there are many who believe that, in its common sense, that isn’t rape. Just as people believe that sleeping with someone with obtain consent first is rape. As a moral judgement that’s fine but it is legally incorrect. The problem with surveys like this is that participants may misunderstand the question so they may be thinking of it in terms of a moral question as opposed to a legal one.

@Quentin the judge directs the jury about what constitutes rape, reasonable belief etc before they go off to make their verdict.

"To be honest, I think it would be rather impractical and very unspontaneous if wives and husbands had to negotiate consent forms every time they wanted a cuddle or a shag. "

"Consent forms"? Did someone suggest paperwork was necessary or are you just building yourself a straw man argument there?

I had a conversation with a relative not too long ago and I was horrified at the attitude they had towards rape in marriage. I think it was an older generation thing, because this person got married way before rape in marriage was illegal. She just did not think it was possible for a woman in a relationship to be raped. It wasn't a conscious, deliberate thing, she just had this overriding conviction that if you are in a relationship, you have already signed on the dotted line of availability. I challenged her as politely, but directly as I could, but it just seemed 'obvious' to her that a relationship implied access. Active consent was a completely opaque concept.

My DH died in 1991, so for our entire married life, marital rape was completely legal in the U.K.
The survey results might simply reflect my age group’s opinions not having caught up with the change in the law.
To be honest, I think it would be rather impractical and very unspontaneous if wives and husbands had to negotiate consent forms every time they wanted a cuddle or a shag. Presumably one marries a partner with the specific intention of shagging them?
My DH and I adored each other, and would often wake each other up with intimate caresses intended to lead to sex.
I think that is a world away from an abusive partner forcing their attentions on an actively unwilling victim. When you love and fancy each other to bits, surely you can assume consent is implied unless told otherwise? DH would of course have stopped immediately if I wasn’t in the mood.

my hunch is that there is a generational difference that'll be maintained as younger people grow up.

Yes, it will be interesting to track this. Given how much peer pressure around sex that young people are exposed to, I found the difference to be encouraging. I'd hope for even more of a shift if and when better, more comprehensive and useful PSHE is introduced into the school curriculum (I'm referring to the recent consultation around PSHE in England and maybe Wales).

This is very depressing but doesn't surprise me. I was involved in a similar research project a few years ago with similar results on attitudes to the harm caused by rape and belief in rape myths:

www2.gov.scot/Resource/0048/00489760.pdf

(It's quite a long and stats heavy report but there's a summary on the findings on attitudes to sexual violence on pages 5 - 6. Also it's just on Scotland).

This also replicated the finding that younger people appear to be much more clued up about consent. Melanippe above questions whether this is a genuine improvement or people changing as they age - the data can't show either way but my hunch is that there is a generational difference that'll be maintained as younger people grow up. Let's hope so!

No, she didn't get away Hestia. She is still with him and he continues to rape her pretty much daily.

In that case I hope ... well it is pretty obvious what I hope for, but probably not allowed to write on a forum.

In that case I apologise for misintepreting your words.

I found your posts very hard to interpret due to phrasing such as:

"I just don't think that most people are oblivious to the subtleties of human behaviour."

What was that sentence supposed to mean?

I didn't say it was worse. I said that people have difficulty reconciling the two. And that's possibly why the OPs stats are the way they are.

And who wouldathunkit fuck of with your ridiculous "it's worse/ he's more guilty if it's a stranger in a park" comments.

Imagine raping the mother of your own children and keeping her stuck in a situation where she cannot escape because she is financially reliant on him and scared he will harm the kids if you leave him.

And then some fuckwit on MN declare that he wasn't all that guilty really, because there are different degrees don't you know.

No, she didn't get away Hestia. She is still with him and he continues to rape her pretty much daily.

She says there's no point going to the police as he won't get convicted.

Sadly she is probably right.

Or, to put it another way - my friend was raped by her husband whilst in early labour

How absolutely horrid! Did she manage to get a divorce and never have to see him again? Sorry, off topic, but I so hope she's okay.