"A quarter of uk adults think that marital sex without consent is not rape."

It seems to me there is something seriously wrong with saying that if women (or men) have an arrangement with their spouse that makes them both happy, even wen they don't have to ask for consent every time and are generally expected to speak up if they aren't keen, those women must just be unaware of their oppression and that they are being abused.

And then the implication that the men in these situations should be subject to legal prosecution, preferably by those who aren't having sex themselves?
I think most people would actually have a problem with that, and if younger people feel differently it may well be in part because they haven't had any serious long term relationships yet.
If the law is calling that rape, a situation where both people actually want sex and are happy to have it, that's a problem. Is rape really about ticking some box called "this is how we define performing consent"? Can you actually separate "consent" from people who want to have sex together? That seems to be taking about the most intimate of human activity and constraining it to business terms. (Which makes me wonder if its some sort of outgrowth of capitalism or neoliberalism.)
This comfortable element of long term relationships is one of the things many people like about them. The sense that they can get beyond that need to conduct their relationship as a sort of contract.
None of that means that therefore sex where one person does not want it is ok, or even legal. THat's a major straw man.

Jessica Eaton's dedication page for her PhD thesis is worth a look:

To all the women and girls wrestling with the feeling that they were in some way to blame for what someone else did to them
...
We all deserve a world in which rape and abuse of women and girls does not happen. But until then, the least we can do is stop blaming them and offer our unconditional support.

twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/status/1070990987374284805

Seems in France if you're married then by law you must have sex with your partner

That isn't what it is saying. There is an assumption a marriage will involve sex, for no other reason that is how babies are made. If one partner refuses, having given no indication beforehand, that is likely to be considered unreasonable behaviour for purposes of a divorce or a legal or canonical annulment. The same will apply in most, if not all, jurisdictions.

France has the similar rules on marital rape as other countries. A spouse can't be forced to have sex - that is still rape- but if they choose not to, there is a possibility the other spouse will end the marriage.

So far as her claim, generally one has a duty to mitigate loss. She could have divorced him (or asked for a religious annulment if she doesn't believe in divorce) long before 21 years.

“Lie back and think of England” springs to mind...

Seems in France if you're married then by law you must have sex with your partner

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8741895/Frenchman-ordered-to-pay-wife-damages-for-lack-of-sex.html

I reported my exH for rape, sexual assault, emotional abuse, physical abuse and ongoing coercive control. Did a video interview and the detective told me they'd be speaking to witnesses, speaking to his work place (where he has form) and speaking to him. I spent weeks afraid of what he'd do when they spoke to him. My witnesses spent weeks anxiously waiting for the detective to call them to take statements. After several weeks I got a call to say they didn't think any of it met the criteria for a crime. Despite the fact he was the one who told me he'd sexually assaulted me in my sleep on more than one occasion. I'm talking 12 years of abuse. So this is no surprise to me at all. I'm deeply saddened by it, but it doesn't surprise me.

Nice clear statement:

Mary Crilly. Irish Feminist activist. Set up Cork Rape Crisis Centre (Cork Sexual Violence Centre). Campaigns tirelessly to reform Irish Law; improve resources; change attitudes. “Consent is not grey. There is consensual sex & there is sexual assault. There is nothing in between”

twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/1071012447698513921

"A family friend is in her 90s. Her husband beat her and coerced sex on their wedding night. She's never once thought otherwise than she was raped, irrespective of the law's perspective for much of her life."

She's absolutely right of course and I'm appalled and saddened that happened to her. Sadly there are some of her generation and even younger that STILL wouldn't necessarily agree that was rape. They're arseholes but they exist.

"And when we talk about people being socialised ... we should always ask the question: By whom were they socialised to be so, and why would that have changed now?" Definitely. Understanding leads to the change we need.

"I am not so sure things got better." In some ways yes in others no different excuses now. Abusers and their apologists blame easy access to hard core porn, sexualised society etc yet that wasn't the case before and these perverts still existed.

"Being married does not mean you can no longer be raped by your husband! Absolutely shocking anyone could think otherwise." But until (I think) 1991 it was legally true as well as societally. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

The 1967 BBC adaptation of The Forsyte Saga shocked the country with the marital rape scene between Soames and Irené.

It wasn't shocking enough, apparently, to prevent Gone With the Wind and its far worse marital rape scene being trotted out on the rep circuit for years and years. I saw Gone With the Wind at a packed Edinburgh Filmhouse (about as wokey and PC and right - on a place as one could hope to find) in the early 2000s.

This is what a woman looks like the morning after marital rape acording to Gone With the Wind. The film is faithful to what Margaret Mitchell wrote in the book.In reality Margaret Mitchell woke up battered and beaten with 2 black eyes after her own experience of marital rape.

We weren't married but I had a big row with an ex boyfriend and went up to bed early. The next morning my ex boasted to me in front of a friend how he had had sex with me whilst I was asleep. We had both had a drink and I was out cold. Now if we had been married that would have been rape as much as it was with us not being married. I felt disgusting, ashamed with myself for going to bed drunk, it was awful.

Being married does not mean you can no longer be raped by your husband! Absolutely shocking anyone could think otherwise.

There was a man on a thread on prostitution who expressed surprise that punters now openly admitted to what they did - he was used to men who go to prostitutes being considered absolute losers.

Legalized Prostitution In Germany Looks Like A Living Nightmare

When German anti-prostitution advocates talk about the situation of prostitution in Germany, we hear the same responses, over and over: “You’ve got to be kidding!” or “How is this possible?” When we do presentations in other countries, people in the audience will often start to cry or ask for a break after 15 minutes to get some fresh air. The same presentations in Germany cause outrage as well, but we’ve noticed that people have become so accustomed to the situation, their emotional response is subdued. In fact, German men will often openly and proudly out themselves as sex buyers at abolitionist events. There is no shame in being a commercial sex buyer in Germany. This is an obvious and alarming sign that decades of legalized prostitution have shaped society.

fightthenewdrug.org/germanys-legalized-prostitution-industry-looks-like-a-real-life-horror-movie/

Older folk were also socialised to think rape was only "stranger dragging woman into an alleyway" type offence. They're also more socialised into misogyny generally and I say that as hardly a spring chicken myself! At 46 I certainly know plenty of my generation who think eg intimately touching a sleeping partner is ok and it's far from just the men that think that.

I am not so sure things got better.

There was a man on a thread on prostitution who expressed surprise that punters now openly admitted to what they did - he was used to men who go to prostitutes being considered absolute losers.
They also, I suppose, didn't watch as much violent porn.

I suppose in previous times, socialisation in such matters was much more dependent on what kind of family you grew up in.
People didn't talk so openly about sex, after all.

And when we talk about people being socialised ... we should always ask the question: By whom were they socialised to be so, and why would that have changed now?

Older folk were also socialised to think rape was only "stranger dragging woman into an alleyway" type offence.

A family friend is in her 90s. Her husband beat her and coerced sex on their wedding night. She's never once thought otherwise than she was raped, irrespective of the law's perspective for much of her life.

Seniorschoolmum

Is that the very old ones, or the very badly educated ones?

Or the religiously bizarre?

Ffs what an ignorant post.

I studied law between 1977- 1981. I was taught in criminal law class that a husband could not be found guilty of rape although he might be found guilty of assault or sexual assault.

In 1988 Alan Rodger, QC, the then Solicitor-General argued this was not a correct interpretation of the Common Law of Scotland and his view was upheld by 3 judges in the Court of Appeal in 1989.

I can't even. It's like a constant barrage of reasons to just give up on society. What a depressing, gut wrenching, soul quashing statistic. Or in other words, fucking hell. Fucking hell that this shit is still needing fighting.

"if I was put in charge tomorrow, would be to have all rapes prosecuted, tried, judged and sentenced by women" women are JUST as guilty of rape apologism as men. Iirc those judges I was quoting only 1 was a man!

"I have long held the view that most rapists do not believe they are rapists. This is why they are outstanding and astonished if they are actually accused of anything and defend their actions with absolute conviction." I agree this is true of a certain type of rapist. The ones who rape 'non violently' especially within a relationship, date rapists etc.

Older folk were also socialised to think rape was only "stranger dragging woman into an alleyway" type offence. They're also more socialised into misogyny generally and I say that as hardly a spring chicken myself! At 46 I certainly know plenty of my generation who think eg intimately touching a sleeping partner is ok and it's far from just the men that think that.

Is that the very old ones, or the very badly educated ones?

Or the religiously bizarre?

"I have a sneaking suspicion the reason the figures are higher for the older generation is because they have had more time to commit rape. Or be raped."

I suspect that, too.

It would be nice if attitudes were really changing, but I am not so sure.
There's probably a bit of a change, but some of it might just be the idealism of young women who haven't yet been raped in a relationship.

(With the men, I am not so sure ... they'd know from the start whether they would do it or not, wouldn't they? And date rape is mostly committed by young men.)

There was a study of US college male students in which 12% (I think) admitted forcing a woman to have (physically) but did not describe them as committing rape or being a rapist.

So yes- people don't want to admit they're rapists, definitely

As a victim myself I know it's taken a long time to accept that I am. I would much, much prefer not to have been a victim- denial is a powerful psychological defence.

I have a sneaking suspicion the reason the figures are higher for the older generation is because they have had more time to commit rape. Or be raped. So if you asked a group of 60 year old men "is it rape if you have sex without consent with your wife" a fairly substantial percentage of the men will have had sex with their wives without consent, if you think of the number of women who are raped by their partners. They probably know this is rape but don't want to admit they are rapists, so they have to say it's not rape. Again with women they probably know they have been raped but don't want to admit it.

The younger generation, probably a smaller percentage have committed rape so you get lower percentages. I hope it's that attitudes are changing but tbh I think most people do know what rape is, but to admit to knowing you have to admit to yourself that you've either been raped or raped someone. I think everyone knows it's wrong to have sex with someone who doesn't consent.

People think differently about the violent attack and the man raping his wife because the first one they know they wouldn't do, the second one they think they would. Or they think someone they know has, they can see it being them and so they have to say it's not rape. It's not that they think they 're different levels of wrong it's that one is closer to home.

The female judge

Agree - which was the judge who warned women last year to not put themselves in danger of being victimised?

I do not agree at all that women only judges are the answer. I've read far too many appalling case reports involving female judges.

I can't remember his name but the most scathing comments about rapists and heaviest sentencing have been made by an English male judge.

Men who aren't rapists have the most independent point of view, as they don't have to justify their own crimes, nor deny something done to them or victim-blame to feel safer on the streets.

But men who are rapists are the most biased. Removing men would remove the extremes.

This is probably not the reason why Vestal Virgins were considered the most trustworthy witnesses in ancient Rome, but women removed from general rape culture would be most likely to have an unbiased point of view.

I have long held the view that most rapists do not believe they are rapists. This is why they are outstanding and astonished if they are actually accused of anything and defend their actions with absolute conviction.