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Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia

746 replies

NotTerfNorCis · 06/12/2018 18:16

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Thought people might be interested in this article. One thing that strikes me is the 'reducing women to their biology' argument. Don't transwomen 'know' they're not male because their body feels wrong? Then it is about biology isn't it? Otherwise why do they think they're female?

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Tanith · 07/12/2018 18:38

D’you think they’re being paid to monitor Mumsnet? If so, I’d like to sign up to the monitoring team, please!

Squall · 07/12/2018 18:25

I would like to take a moment to apologise if I ever interrupt or otherwise mess up the flow of discussions on here. I think it may be all those years of thinking about nappies has sent my mind a bit skew-whif.

I did get a bit confused and suspicious about the number of times the word liberation was used. People who do that make me want to hide behind a big rock.

merrymouse · 07/12/2018 18:10

According to twitter one of the co-founders of Vice magazine, Gavin McInnes, went on to found the 'Proud Boys', a far right nationalist group that excludes women. He has since distanced himself from the Proud Boys (and just 'supports western values'), and Vice bought him out in 2008

However, the other two cofounders worked with McInnes for 14 years and are still involved with the magazine.

I think Justine Robert's judgement is a little less suspect.

StrangeLookingParasite · 07/12/2018 17:29

The Tranish Inquistion

This is gold.

Eve, on the other hand, not so much.

merrymouse · 07/12/2018 17:25

R0wantrees, she appears to be muting replies to talk about recipes. Is that on purpose or has she not noticed what she has done?

LangCleg · 07/12/2018 17:23

Who spent several months here berating everyone non stop earlier this year. Mostly for not believing the junk science.

And calling the actual science quackery!

LangCleg · 07/12/2018 17:22

It's the famous Schrodinger's Mumsnetter making an appearance: simultaneously a white middle-class, Boden-wearing, 4x4 driving mum whose views on self-ID have no validity, and an evil external agitator, probably funded by shadowy far right US organisations with an anti-trans agenda.

Rumbled.

StarsAndWater · 07/12/2018 17:20

can't believe no-one has saidNOBODY EXPECTS THE TRANISH INQUISITION.

😂😂😂

merrymouse · 07/12/2018 17:20

I supposed Schrodinger's mumsnetter would have to be moderated by Schrodinger's moderator - simultaneously deleting content that breaches talk guidelines and making it available for distribution.

Bubonicpanic · 07/12/2018 17:04

It's mostly Prior speaking though isn't it. Who spent several months here berating everyone non stop earlier this year. Mostly for not believing the junk science. Prior is the one with the hate problem. It must be infuriating that people don't want to pretend. They need to come to terms with this.

Racecardriver · 07/12/2018 17:02

Bunch of people omen brought together by their experiences arising from their female bodies are doubious about claims that feelings make you a woman. Shock horror.

Lawlsie1976 · 07/12/2018 17:02

iguanadonna Fri 07-Dec-18 15:08:48

By a young woman who has not yet realized that being a feminist means sometimes not being very pleasing to the men around her.

Oh god yes, this! A thousand times this.

terryleather Fri 07-Dec-18 15:27:31

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that not giving in to every whim and demand of the overlords = transphobia in the genderists' minds.

This is why I no longer give a flying fuck through a rolling donut about the accusations they fart out on a tiresomely regular basis.

Quite! Very well put. Me too!

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 07/12/2018 16:58

A militant vegan lentil-knitter who can make a chicken last a family for a week.

hackmum · 07/12/2018 16:45

I'm really confused - are these people supposed to be white middle class mothers too, or is 'white middle class mother' just supposed to discredit the site generally?

It's the famous Schrodinger's Mumsnetter making an appearance: simultaneously a white middle-class, Boden-wearing, 4x4 driving mum whose views on self-ID have no validity, and an evil external agitator, probably funded by shadowy far right US organisations with an anti-trans agenda.

ChewyLouie · 07/12/2018 16:39

Wrongsideofhistory, Pass the comfy chair!

sackrifice · 07/12/2018 16:20

Late to the party today but can I just say sackrifice that boozy damson flapjacks sound beyond lush...

I know, right?

merrymouse · 07/12/2018 16:11

The distinction between online “free speech”—often posited as a defence by website owners and admins—and offline harassment and abuse is becoming increasingly discredited.

Pretty easy to distinguish between people talking about recipes on an anonymous forum and somebody urinating on a door. Perhaps Eve could have benefited from doing some more in depth research.

Prior argues that Mumsnet has been hijacked by anti-trans campaigners as a safe space for organizing, rather than the sentiment having grown organically through its original base.

I'm really confused - are these people supposed to be white middle class mothers too, or is 'white middle class mother' just supposed to discredit the site generally?

In its early days, Mumsnet operated as a one-stop-shop for mothers. Amongst discussions about the practicalities of motherhood, childcare, support for disabled children, and a range of other topics, Mumsnet was most likely to hit headlines for the likes of the infamous "penis beaker” thread, which gained internet notoriety when a user asked for views on her post-sex cleanup arrangements.

Don't know what counts as the early days - I think I first posted in about 2004, but from what I remember there have always lengthy, informed, well argued discussions about politics. I think of 'penis beaker' as comparatively recent. (Just checked, it was 2013 - I remember this more as the era of Bedroom Tax threads).

hackmum · 07/12/2018 16:06

Seriously I thought that article was going to be satire when I saw the headline and the claim that mumsnetters were using recipes to be mean to trans activists.

Welcome back, iguana, but obviously you've been away a long time if you didn't realise that sharing recipes was LITERAL VIOLENCE.

VickyEadie · 07/12/2018 15:53

I don't think any of these people have ever pretended to be allies of women.

They don't even like women or try to hide their absolute contempt for women.

"Enjoy ur (sic) erasure" always springs to mind.

terryleather · 07/12/2018 15:52

Oh my goodness arran that Big Think piece could have been written about the overlords - really interesting to think about it in a wider context too. Thanks for posting.

Ereshkigal · 07/12/2018 15:50

Can anyone remember any radio or tv broadcast where one of the transwoman regulars being interviewed didn't speak right over and interrupt any woman speaker just like men constantly do?

I don't think any of these people have ever pretended to be allies of women.

Ereshkigal · 07/12/2018 15:48

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that not giving in to every whim and demand of the overlords = transphobia in the genderists' minds.

Yep.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 07/12/2018 15:47

Allies should be wary of….who they might be speaking over when they choose to talk

Seriously. Can anyone remember any radio or tv broadcast where one of the transwoman regulars being interviewed didn't speak right over and interrupt any woman speaker just like men constantly do? There was an interview lately with Fae where the bloke being interviewed alongside interrupted and talked right over her the exact same way JF talks over women, and JF did full blown catsbum face.

TimeLady · 07/12/2018 15:37

Welcome back, iguanadonna.

arranbubonicplague · 07/12/2018 15:32

Interesting also that the noyaux contain a tiny amount of cyanide..

I seem to remember this as a plot point in an Agatha Christie short story that also refers to this incident in Taylor's Medical Jurisprudence :

books.google.co.uk/books?id=D1q-CgAAQBAJ&pg=PR19&lpg=PR19&dq=murder+mystery+apricot+liqueur+%22noyaux%22&source=bl&ots=wE6U174O4o&sig=zgAV_NJuqE3VaoVZYhoRWJ_EUxQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJid69g47fAhUyrXEKHS1iC8MQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=murder%20mystery%20apricot%20liqueur%20%22noyaux%22&f=false

As for the article under discussion - as always, it comes down to what is interpreted as transphobia. But, I do think that Eve might want to pay close attention to this thought-provoking piece that describes research into individual and collective narcissism:

Research from my PrejudiceLab at Goldsmiths, University of London shows that people who score high on the collective narcissism scale are particularly sensitive to even the smallest offences to their group’s image. As opposed to individuals with narcissistic personality, who maintain inflated views of themselves, collective narcissists exaggerate offences to their group’s image, and respond to them aggressively. Collective narcissists believe that their group’s importance and worth are not sufficiently recognised by others. They feel that their group merits special treatment, and insist that it gets the recognition and respect it deserves. In other words, collective narcissism amounts to a belief in the exaggerated greatness of one’s group, and demands external validation.

bigthink.com/aeon-ideas/why-collective-narcissists-are-so-politically-volatile