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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

406 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 05/12/2018 10:18

twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1070231803087200256?s=21

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AdamBede · 06/12/2018 17:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 06/12/2018 17:54

Just to remind you, AdamBede, here's your first post on page ten of a thread in which a wide variety of different positions had been put forward by a wide variety of women.

Including Debbie herself.

LangCleg · 06/12/2018 17:53

I despair of this debate I really do. Debbie gets massive flak from both sides, just don't get why people take a pop at her on here. I thought the issue was self ID, ie, that people who DON'T have genuine gender dysphoria could access safe spaces under the guise of self declaration. But if we are going to deny any trans person, who feels trans but wants to debate and listen to a range of women's voices, their identity then I am not on board. Trans people have been using women's spaces for decades, with a mutual respect and agreement, which is exactly what Debbie and others are trying to do. The balance, in my opinion, has changed, because of the aggressively misogynistic voices shouting down the anyone concerned about the potential abuses of self id as transphobia. If Debbie and others like her, who have been living as transwomen/men for many years, stick their head above the parapet to listen and empathise with women's concerns, to be told their identities aren't valid, then the belief that trans people feel erased by this debate is bloody valid.

Just to remind you, AdamBede, here's your first post on page ten of a thread in which a wide variety of different positions had been put forward by a wide variety of women.

It's bloody obnoxious.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 17:51

Please tell me how I haven't engaged in civilised discussion, and please hold a mirror up to yourselves.

Ereshkigal I was told from the moment i posted here tonight I was not engaging in good faith so no surprise there. Stating my opinion is neither being self important nor telling you off. You are being utterly baffling and the tone of MN debate is pretty low tonight.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 06/12/2018 17:50

Are you Debbies biographer?

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 17:49
Hmm
AdamBede · 06/12/2018 17:48

Debbie acknowledges her birth sex, and acknowledges that for her, living as a woman brought her peace of mind better than anything else could.

Seems to clarify anyway that Self ID is a red herring and not your concern.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 17:45

I'm starting to doubt that you're posting in good faith, actually. Either that or you have not one iota of self awareness that when you came in you told us off like a bunch of naughty school kids. And people quite reasonably objected to being told what to do or what feelings and views were acceptable.

By a self important random person who had name changed but expects us to magically know their level of involvement in GC debate.

Spoiler: I don't care.

LangCleg · 06/12/2018 17:43

It is either about self ID or it isn't.

Don't be ridiculous. You don't get to frame the debate. It can be just about self-ID for some and about more than that for others. Why not just state your own position rather than arriving on a thread complete with name change just to bitch at the effrontery of the women who don't agree with you?

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 17:43

And I'm sure you'll remember RowanTrees, that Helen Lewis expressed the bafflement that Bex wouldn't debate her live, seeing as she actually does believe TW are W - as I do, but that a difficult, uncomfortable debate is still necessary for Self ID. It is necessary here too.

Indeed I do.
Bex Stinson is a senior employee at Stonewall, an influential charity in receipt of significant amounts of public money.
Charities and lobbyists who enjoy considerable access to politicians, policy makers etc must be open to scrutiny regardless of the sector or their gender identity.

People who wish to post here are required to engage in civilised discussion within the rules of the board.

There's a significant difference between the two situations.

Melamin · 06/12/2018 17:43

or 5 minutes? who knows.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 17:42

Good to know how name changers who disagree with you are treated nowadays. How long have you been on here Melamin?

I've been on here, yes, in various guises, for over a decade thanks.

Melamin · 06/12/2018 17:42

Yep - there was some slow discussion of awkward issues and exploring the details and consequences and it was interesting.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 17:40

Really, so disagreeing with 'everyone' and joining late in a thread is 'barging in and scolding everyone.'
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Melamin · 06/12/2018 17:40

collective sense of unity [and anonymity]

You are the one with no posting history.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 17:39

You are being utterly disingenuous and buoyed by your collective sense of unity [and anonymity]

Says the anonymous, name changing poster.

LangCleg · 06/12/2018 17:39

about not recognising trans identities

If you mean I don't believe there is such a thing as a gender identity, you'd be quite right. I don't.

Neither does Debbie.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 17:38

Rowantrees, sorry, are you actually trying to say I didn't listen, at the time, to the Woman's Hour interview between Bex Stimpson [pre-recorded] and Helen Lewis? This is utterly, utterly baffling.

No I didn't say that, try to say that or imply that.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 17:38

your group etiquette towards my posts have not been seriously off.

You barged in and scolded everyone. What sort of etiquette is that?

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 17:36

It is either about self ID or it isn't

No it isn't. You really are terribly self important.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 17:36

You are being utterly disingenuous and buoyed by your collective sense of unity [and anonymity] if you think, Ereshkigal, your group etiquette towards my posts have not been seriously off.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 17:36

It is either about self ID or it isn't.

Clearly its about many things: women's rights, safeguarding, free speech, parliamentary process, role of lobbying groups, different perspectives within the transgender communities, control of social media platforms, gender stereotypes, access to heathcare, data, education, law, tackling male violence, homophobia, sexuality etc etc

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 17:35

And I'm sure you'll remember RowanTrees, that Helen Lewis expressed the bafflement that Bex wouldn't debate her live, seeing as she actually does believe TW are W - as I do, but that a difficult, uncomfortable debate is still necessary for Self ID. It is necessary here too.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 17:35

And I think you are shooting yourself in the foot if what you actually want is all trans people to use the bathrooms of their birth sex.

No one has actually said that. It's not what I want. Stop making assumptions.

But your view is noted. Forgive me if I'm not that bothered what you personally think about me or my views, real or assumed.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 17:32

Thanks Melamin for the constructive post - good to pile on isn't it when the going is strong! It isn't about you either!

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