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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

406 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 05/12/2018 10:18

twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1070231803087200256?s=21

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R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 19:29

Mumfun It also offers the opportunity for a loophole in security measures with regards international travel.
There is a fairly imminent bill in New Zealand and Tasmania (I think) which could also allow for passports to have an X instead of F or M which may set a precedent.

Mumfun · 06/12/2018 19:21

Sigh. Can I go back to passports for a moment? I was struck a while ago at how quickly Steph was able to get a GRC -through an overseas route was'nt it? Was it subject to a different level of scrutiny?

So can passports also be used as a self ID from overseas? I am entitled by birth to apply for another passport. I could get this with a marker of another sex. I dont think many people would challenge it in the UK. So therefore I could gain entry to any single sex spaces with it as I could say I dont have a UK GRC as I am from another country.

It doesnt feel very satisfactory at all.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 19:21

AfterEllen article, 'Girl Dick, the Cotton Ceiling and the Cultural War on Lesbians, Girls and Women'
By Miranda Yardley
(extract)
"It’s a measure of how completely topsy-turvy the transgender debate has made LGB&T politics and organizations that the person writing this piece is a transsexual. I am, however, uniquely placed to be able to write this piece as I am a man who ‘lives as a woman,’ whatever that may mean, and can see exactly how too many transgender rights activists think. And as anyone who has ever participated in social media knows, any criticism of transgender ideology, which we all of us have the right to accept, critique and reject, any deviation from the brain-sucking mantra of ‘trans women are women,’ is met with reports to our employers, threats of physical violence, and threats of rape and death. This is a viciously toxic form of men’s sexual rights activism that has managed to rebrand and reframe itself as a civil rights movement.

The framing of any discussion or debate is all important, and political language is often used to reframe threats as harmless, or to sell us ideas we’d never ordinarily entertain. Sometimes though the only way to drill down and actually understand something is to walk away from any subjective post-structuralist pretensions and abandon the soft lighting of the political language we have been carefully taught, reverting to good old fashioned precise and factual descriptions: thus all pronouns and reference to sex within my writing shall be implied from real life actual biological sex, and biological males will be referred to as such, even when they LARP 24/7 as a man’s idea of what it is to be a woman.

We cannot talk sensibly about sexuality and sexual orientation unless we are able to correctly identify sex, and being consistent on sex will also allow me to distance myself from the transgenderist reframing of the inherently exclusionary nature of sexual orientation as acts of bigotry and hate, because it is not: we are allowed to define our personal, intimate and sexual boundaries and decline sexual and romantic relationships without having to justify these

The homophobic, anti-lesbian idea which had wedged itself into the heart of transgender ideology does, of course, have a name: The Cotton Ceiling. The cotton ceiling is defined by Wikipedia as “…the difficulty trans people experience when seeking lesbian and gay relationships, and in lesbian and gay social spaces more generally.” This needs to be carefully deconstructed, in particular, the basis of the perceived exclusion is extremely important: attempts to reframe exclusion as ‘transphobic hate’ based on the exclusion being ‘because they are trans’ is the most common argument, however the true motivation is revealed starkly by Julia Serano, writing in 2014 in The Daily Beast ‘The Struggle to Find Trans Love in San Francisco,’ which is a masterpiece in the sleight of hand that has made it impossible to talk about our sexual orientation in terms of biological sex without being labelled a bigot or worse: the piece is even subtitled “for one trans woman, finding a date within San Francisco’s lesbian community turned out to be much harder than she anticipated” which, by redefining Serano as a woman, immediately demonized those darn evil lesbians and makes h* out to be an innocent victim of unfair negative discrimination. What Serano does is reframe h difficulty in finding a female homosexual to have sex with him as symptomatic of systematic, structural oppression. Here, *, the biological male in search of a sexual relationship with a homosexual, biological female, is bizarrely reframed as the victim: (continues)

www.afterellen.com/general-news/567823-girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-girls-and-women

**redacted in light of MN rules re pronouns

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 06/12/2018 19:02

Who is petty and shit?

I feel ive missed something

TwistedChristmas · 06/12/2018 18:59

Male interlopers are getting pretty dull now. It's like a game to them to come onto FWR and rile up women whilst complaining how we don't centre men, are mean, have a hive mind, why can't we just be nice damn it and blah blah blah ad nauseum. Feminism and women's rights. Clues in the name. Do women frequent men's boards or internet spaces? Genuine question as it would never occur to me to do so.
I personally refuse to engage with twatdom as my exH would only be too happy to explain. He still tries though, bless him.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 18:49

Because i said you were being petty and sh*t? Wow MN, well done.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 18:45

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Datun · 06/12/2018 18:41

Yes, women getting irritated with pompous, censorious comments is exactly the same as rape threats.

sackrifice · 06/12/2018 18:39

And having been on FB and Twitter discussions with TWs grouping together and behaving in a v similar way to the way you have just all behaved, makes me realise that very few people actually want actual debate and communication between both sides.

You mean how people responded to your rudeness?

Women, just be nice for fucks sake!

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 18:39

Did the TRAs not believe you were genuine?

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 18:36

Personally I'm very happy to debate. My boundaries and consent are my own. I'll debate the issues all the live long day, but the answer will still be no.

Here's to that Wine

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 18:36

Why? It was TWs who were also TRAs. And they behaved in a v similar way to the way you are here. What is this obsession you have with 'catching me out?' It is bizarre.

Datun · 06/12/2018 18:36

Personally I'm very happy to debate. My boundaries and consent are my own. I'll debate the issues all the live long day, but the answer will still be no.

Bubonicpanic · 06/12/2018 18:35

No is not the beginning of a negotiation. No means no.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 18:35

Why on earth is ME saying I accept TW [who have undergone meaningful transition] are W, and using Helen Lewis as an example of someone else who does, mean I am saying you all must believe it? Absolute derailing strawman.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 18:33

I guess you must mean TRAs, rather than "TWs."

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 18:32

And having been on FB and Twitter discussions with TWs grouping together and behaving in a v similar way to the way you have just all behaved, makes me realise that very few people actually want actual debate and communication between both sides.

Bubonicpanic · 06/12/2018 18:31

Sadly the root cause of that outburst seems to be an assumption that validating trans identities was something women must do even if they don't support self ID.

Which really is spectacularly missing the point. The fakery and finageling of gender identity is the core issue. This is the false fact that we refuse to have forced on us.

No matter who it is.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 18:31

Absolutely genuine.
I know that to be the case.
You don't have to believe me.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 18:29

Enormously disingenuous and dishonest on your behalf.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 18:20

No.
I acknowledge your clear distress.
I am not responsible for it.

As this thread seems to be adding to your feelings, it may be helpful to step away. Take a break.
The thread and discussion isn't going anywhere and you can always return if /when you wish to.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/12/2018 18:16

Alas poor Bunbury, I knew her well.....

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 18:15

You are being so unbelievably flippant about something that is such horrendous emotional abuse that yep I have experienced and causes so much mental and emotional distress [DARVO] whilst being so fucking disingenuous about how you have behaved, that you should be really ashamed of that comment.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 18:14

This is the second challenge/invitation on FWR today to 'say it to my face'.
Of course likely coincidence, but unusual in these parts.

AdamBede · 06/12/2018 18:13

You've definitely pushed me further away from your corner though. And guess what, if I am actually a woman/mother/long time Mnetter, maybe that's not such a great thing.

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