Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

Next week's Guardian headline Sophocles?

Probably a good idea for people to get screen shots of their posts on this thread. If you get deleted for something tiny (missing a s for example!) then there is a fair chance the deletion will be screenshotted to show how transphobic we all are on here. So best to have evidence ready in advance of any attacks.

there's no kind of robust scientific evidence to say that either testosterone or oestrogen impacts directly on athletic performance.

Honestly, by this stage of the game, I'm waiting for MRAs to decide that outlawing doping by using testosterone was because of misandry. Feminists demonising male hormones or something. Free the T!

Great job with the transcript Pencils. Thank you. Has anyone got a link and start time so I can listen to it in all its glory?

You know, certainly women report that once they've been on oestrogen therapy they feel weaker, they run slower than perhaps they did before, but there's no kind of robust scientific evidence to say that either testosterone or oestrogen impacts directly on athletic performance.

I know exactly what Beth meant by this. We all do. But it could be taken that as there is no "evidence" to the contrary all transwomen retain the physical advantages of their male bodies and so should not compete against women. Even her own arguments go against Beth!

Actually, I think this might be a better email address to use for Woman's Hour:

[email protected]

You'll get an email reply that says this:

Please be aware that if you have contacted us with your views and experiences about an item that you have heard on Woman's Hour, then all or part of your message may be used on air unless you have specifically said that you do not want it to be broadcast. Alternatively, we may contact you to record your views for a later edition of Woman's Hour. If you have asked to remain anonymous we will respect that request.

so, you might want to ask to remain anonymous 🤔.

I think this "two sides of equal merit" has been seeping into public debate for a while, it's not just on this topic - vaccination, climate change etc.

I always hark back to No You're Not Entitled To Your Opinion, which sets it out nice & clearly

"The false equivalence between experts and non-experts that is an increasingly pernicious feature of our public discourse"

Yes Bowlofbabelfish, I often find myself thinking Now show me the extraordinary evidence that supports your extraordinary claims.

Also, male athletes will improve their performance if the wrestle bears and run from tigers
🤣
Let's not forget that some of those bears and tigers are actually humans who identify as bears and tigers and (because they tried really hard) were able to compete in the bear and tiger events
🤣

Dr Beth Jones doesn't seem to be a fan of Twitter but at least her controversial views on transgender sports will be archived here on Mumsnet should anyone to a search in the future

The problem with this attempt at impartiality is that it presents the two positions as balanced and equivalent.

YES. This is exactly it. The Beb is misunderstanding what a balanced debate is. It is not ‘someone from the exact opposite end of the argument no matter how extreme.’ Not all views and opinions have equal merit. It would be like debating a subtle point of human evolutionary theory by having a creationist on, rather than an out-of-Africa proponent vs a staunch multiregionalist.

It’s all part of denying material reality and I agree with you bowl. I don’t think we should play that game and agree that there isn’t much research.

I think we should ask what funding is available for research into whether men are stronger than women - answer - none because it’s not necessary.

Next up my proposed PhD to examine the thesis that the sky is blue and that cats are fluffy. Who wants to fund me?

What I struggle with is that somebody can come along and deny human physiology - scientific fact and that person is taken seriously and interviewed on the BBC. Did Women's Hour know that this Beth Jones person had such extreme crackpot views?

The problem with this attempt at impartiality is that it presents the two positions as balanced and equivalent. As if understanding that men and women are build differently and men on average have physical advantages is equivalent to denying any difference exists at all and all women need to do to outperform men physically is to try a little harder. Flat earthism isn't an acceptable alternative belief to accepting the earth is round. Creationism isn't an acceptable alternative belief to evolution. Beth Jonesism as I will christen this travesty, isn't an acceptable alternative belief to the normal understanding of sex differentiation between men and women.

I don't understand why both sides keep mentioning there not being any relevant scientific evidence. There must be heaps that would inform the debate, at least partially.

Take the most obvious thing you can think of, something that your senses confirm daily and which society has had as a self evidential truth for millennia. I dunno. Fire when wood burns is hot, something like that.

Now someone comes along and says actually, fire isn’t hot. No it is, you say, toasting a marshmallow, fire when wood burns is hot. Aha, they say, but what about ethanol? I’m not talking bout ethanol, you say, there will of course be some substances that burn below marshmallow roasting temperature but camp fires, made from wood, are hot.

What about isopropyl alcohol eh? GOTCHA!

I’m not talking about something from a lab, you twit. I’m talking about building a fire from wood. It’s hot.

Ah, they can, can you definitively prove that all wood is hot burning, where are the scientific papers? GOTCHA!

It’s that level of debate. Science doesn’t need to do extensive research to prove that shit we know is true, is true. If you want to say that shitvisnt true, YOU, my dear TRA, must bring the evidence.

She is so provoking - with her calm clear explanations and intelligence

Datun is the reasonable canary in the mines of gaslighting fuckery!

When she starts getting deleted, you know the gas burners are on full bore, pumping out manipulative nonsense.

Datun, you are our barometer of TRA rage. 😁

👆yup

And any thread that Datun gets a deletion is a signal that fury elsewhere is likely to be high.

Yep.

Pencils
Thanks for the transcript.

Just listened to the podcast.
Of course transwomen want to compete in women's sports.
They are cheats.

No mention of MN on WH.
Deliberate?

Only the UK's main sounding board for womens opinions, isnt it?

Women athletes will improve their game if they compete against men.

Also, male athletes will improve their performance if the wrestle bears and run from tigers.

The Romans had it right all along.

Re: Beth Jones.

That’s a hell of a lot of ‘you knows’ for someone saying ‘we just don’t know’.

I am clearly not working hard enough.
I've not got a deletion

That transcript

Wow. Beth, give your head a wobble mate. You just went on national radio and implied that males are better than females at sport because they try harder. How on earth did you come to make yourself believe this??

I don't want sport to be segregated by Same Sized People. I'm a six foot, twelve stoner. By any measure, I'm going in with the men, where I will be comprehensively beaten. I compete in triathlon (men and women compete together in the sense that we're on the course together, but competing by sex) and while I can outswim a good proportion of men (because I'm a top 10% female swimmer, and because it's so technical that the gap between male and female isn't as yawning as in some other disciplines), but the second we all get out of the water, I get my arse thoroughly kicked on the bike and run.

Males in female sports are doping. Going through a male puberty is doping.

Pencils thank you as usual.

And any thread that Datun gets a deletion is a signal that fury elsewhere is likely to be high.

Bowl