Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

I can’t see the Alex tweet! Can someone enlighten me?

Christmas jumper of genderism

Phrase of the week. Thank you.

I know I've argued the opposite on this thread, but actually I think you're right, Pencils and others: The whole 'giving equal weight to both sides' thing is perfect

You're correct that there are benefits. I don't like it because one side brings facts, and the other side brings feelings, and we have to pretend they're equivalent in value and in force, when they're not. It's a shitty way to conduct public debate, as we're all wearingly familiar with. But when it's so glaringly obvious that the ramifications of prioritising the feelings are so utterly unfair and egregious, it kind of works.

And the reaction from the feelings side is also helpful: you can't argue that you weren't allowed to put your side, when everyone with eyes can see that actually you just failed to. Then they ask themselves why you failed to convince them, why the arguments were so thin and why they need to learn a whole new language, and why you're telling them things that you are pretty sure aren't true, and when you tug at that dangling thread, the whole Christmas jumper of genderism tends to unravel pretty quickly

I have been laughing so hard at that Alex tweet. They are all so stupid, it's cringe worthy.

I guess I never before realised that we segregate sport by gender identity rather than sex. All those women tennis players, swimmers, athletes, weight lifters and rugby players compete as women because inside they feel really womanly.

It must be that because we all know that you can't change sex.

If we segregate sport on any other basis then this discussion becomes meaningless.

Yes Alex. You are not a woman. You can be a transwoman all you like but woman is not your category.

Oh my, that Alex Sharpe tweet is hilarious. Can we have it on a t-shirt (with AS fully credited of course.)?

Behind arguments about...

Usefully enough, there's no reading between the lines or interpretation involved as WPUK has helpfully formulated the 5 Demands and published them, in plain view, on a website:

Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard.

The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.

A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act (which allow for single sex services, or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice.

Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces.

Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

womansplaceuk.org/our-5-demands/

Maybe now they've understood the point they'll engage in debate...or start to understand what women have been talking about!

Behind arguments about fairness in sport, skewing of violent offending stats, unnecessary NHS smear tests ... lies a desire to exclude TW from women-only spaces and, of course, from the category 'woman' altogether. It is all in plain view ppl.

Shit - they’re onto us!

Who squealed?

I thought this was the best discussion of the series. It was clear and very relatable to lots of women. The others were a bit esoteric.

Outrageous that women just need to "try harder" to compete on the same level as men. Perhaps we should do away with the Paralympics..if disabled people were only given the right motivation and environment they'd be able to compete on a level with able bodied people. Heck we should just get rid of wheel chairs etc., having to drag themselves through the dirt should be the motivation these people need to do better at walking.

a desire to exclude TW from women-only spaces and, of course, from the category 'woman' altogether. It is all in plain view

Has Alex only just realised this? Bit slow on the uptake. Especially as it's all in plain view.

What on earth did they think was the reason?

Do they really have so little clue, or is this just disingenuous to make it sound like that is the most bigoted thing anyone could possibly imagine?

Stay focused. Behind arguments about fairness in sport, skewing of violent offending stats, unnecessary NHS smear tests ... lies a desire to exclude TW from women-only spaces and, of course, from the category 'woman' altogether. It is all in plain view ppl.

Eh? It was always in plain view. It's the entire point!

What on earth did they think was the reason?

I saw Alex Sharpes tweet earlier and thought "duh uhhr!" The whole point of this is protecting women's spaces and it is scarcely news that gc people dont share the religious belief that TWAW? Alex seems rather to have blown the gaffe on the TRA pretence that we 'hate trans people' and 'want to erase them' (whatever that means). Trans people are like any other group; they're just not magic and they cant change sex.

Alex Sharpe's additional contribution that incorporates Woman's Hour's discussion about sports:

twitter.com/AlexSharpe64/status/1070018613271252992

Stay focused. Behind arguments about fairness in sport, skewing of violent offending stats, unnecessary NHS smear tests ... lies a desire to exclude TW from women-only spaces and, of course, from the category 'woman' altogether. It is all in plain view ppl.

Sorry but I couldn't resist name-changing. Just too tempting.

Why can't men's sports become 'gender inclusive'?

The trans women in sport issue is what makes the TRA argument look spectacularly ridiculous and they know it.

After falling down a google rabbit hole I came across this:

www.olympic.org/news/spotlight-on-shan-zhang

It's a profile of Shan Zhang, the first and last woman to win a mixed shooting event in the Olympics. She set a new Olympic record too. This was in Barcelona 1992, and after this the event became single sex. Does anyone know more about this? I know nothing about shooting, but I think there are still some mixed sex events. Surely this category wasn't changed because the women were getting too good?!

I think sports is what will win this debate overall. The photos speak for themselves.

And my mum listens to Woman's Hour - and she's totally with us. Human beings cannot change sex.

For people who don't click on links - that is "Female sports are for women."

And a list of male v female sports records.

Every person I know in real life is completely baffled by gender ideology and by transwomen competing in women's sports.

This tweet sums it up so completely twitter.com/MeenaCreek/status/1069960122829602816