Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

ffs yes women

She didn't have the time?? But did to record it?

Go Jane

Another no debate

I will be listening intently. This is one of my touchpaper topics.
As an ex rugby player, and now rower, (and a short, fat, old one at that) I would be unfairly and severely disadvantaged and at risk competing against natal males - being beaten by a more physically suitable woman is something I am at peace with! I would be absolutely fucking fuming if a trans woman took my place on a women's team, let alone tried to share mixed showering and bathing facilities that you often get in community and amateur facilities.
However, I also play in mixed sports teams, touch and rowing, and really enjoy the different atmosphere and skill level that you get in a mixed team, so there is definitely a place for that too.
I agree with you MrsBeaujangles - I'm also a passionate believer in the benefits of sport and physical activity, and think we can do much much more for LGBT+ communities re participation in sport. Just trying to insert trans people into competitive sport of their preferred gender is not fair, and also will almost completely shut trans men out of competition too.
Listening now.

10.00-10.45 Mon-Fri. Catch-up for the highlights Sat 16.00

Someone posted on the women's hour tweet about the upcoming segment:

I just hope they challenge the lies that Williams will undoubtedly come out with. I'm predicting a salvo of fibs about testosterone levels which I'm already preparing complaints about if they don't challenge her

There are also a few tweets complaining that the segment is clearly transphobic as the tweet promoting it did not leave a space between "trans women" but instead used "transwomen".

Stupid question... is women's hour at the same time every day? I listened yesterday as saw it mentioned on here and was interested. Feel like I've arrived at adulthood wanting to plan to listen to radio (4??) daily

It's on in a minute?

Bex/Stonewall, Sally Hines, Linda Riley, and now Beth Jones all have careers that are very much supported by trans related funding.

Follow the money...

I can't find it just at the moment but I remember reading something by the man who set the olympic criteria for trans athletes. The criteria are nothing to do with making it 'fair' in terms of competition, but rather about being 'inclusive', i.e. nice. The only reason there is any criteria at all is to act as some sort of gatekeeping. The problem is that this then focuses on testosterone as the be all and end all (because the criteria is a level of testosterone). So you get all this research about whether it really does have an effect or not. But it misses the point - limiting testosterone was never about bringing trans women down to the same level as women, but to stop it being a complete free for all. Predictably there are people who don't like any restriction on competing so are trying to break down the testosterone link, which ignores all the other advantages that male people have over female.

I hope Nic asks about the pyschological impact on girls when, however much they train, they will never win: cyclists; swimmers; track and field.

One of the conclusions from that report I think was single sex sport was very important Even at club level not just elite athelets

In terms of safety DD played some non-competitive mixed adult hockey when she was 16. I was terrified, even though the nice young men were very aware and willing to hold back. And very relieved when she was accepted into a competitive single sex team.

Oh yes how could I forget Fox!

Last sentence should say that I don't need three PhD students to spend a year thinking about it to come to that conclusion.

I really hope Dr Nic comments in the fact that Beth is a psychologist, not a biologist and that she actually is.

That quote from Loughborough website for those PhD posts is truly depressing. Funding to prove that natal males need to encroach on female spaces in order to access sport meanwhile this will discourage females from taking part and even fewer women and girls will benefit from sport and those attempts to encourage them will be undermined by the need to include transgender females and what little funding was available for this purpose will decrease. And I don't need three

I'm sure Nic will bring them up. I hope she also brings up Fallon Fox:

whoatv.com/transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-sends-opponent-to-hospital/

Obviously this is an issue not just about the huge, glaring unfairness of allowing men to compete against women, but the physical danger it puts women in.

Im on holiday and can't access BBC i-player so really appreciate being able to follow the debate on here. Tia.

I hope she brings up one or more of McKinnon, Hubbard, Mouncey.

Just looked at that Loughborough link:

"The more we delved into the issue, the clearer it became that many sporting organisations had overinterpreted the unsubstantiated belief that testosterone leads to an athletic advantage in transgender people, particularly individuals who were assigned male at birth but identify as female."

That's just nuts, isn't it? Why does she think that Eastern European female athletes were injected with testosterone for so long? Just because it was a fun thing to do? And of course she doesn't even consider the superior size, weight and muscle advantages of male athletes.

Nic should ask her why trans women are trouncing women in female sports, while trans men have made no such gains in male sports.

I wonder if Dr Harrop was on a night shift when he was tweeting his missives at 4am?

And life isn't fair. At 5'1", I had to accept that I wasn't going to make the netball team. And a slightly built male isn't likely to excel at rugby lesgue

#lifesucks

MrsBeaujangles

Completely agree. Sport benefits everyone (i’d love to see more girls do sport) and generally there are lots of sports you can play or take part in recreationally that are mixed - maybe not just competitively.

Not just finding - in the states scholarship is a Big Thing. Missing a women’s sport scholarship to a bio man?

I posted this on AIBU earlier this year

Interesting research opportunitites on the Loughborough university site:

One of the most influential, powerful and visible institutions upholding the gender binary is sport – where participation is predominantly segregated by biological sex, rooted in the widely-held beliefs about fairness and the biological advantages associated with being male. Such beliefs are over-simplistic, legitimise discrimination, and hinder the sports participation of transgender (intersex, trans, non-binary) individuals. With the rapidly growing societal visibility of transgender people, there is an unprecedented need to address areas where discrimination may arise.

The newly formed Gender and Sport Centre for Doctoral Training (CDT), led by Dr Gemma Witcomb in the School of Sport Exercise and Health Sciences (SSEHS), is recruiting five highly motivated PhD students to explore the current and changing landscape of sports participation for transgender adults and children and recommend changes to promote inclusive participation.

www.lboro.ac.uk/departments/ssehs/research/centrefordoctoraltraining/

The studentship provides a tax free stipend of £14,777 per year for three years

so 5 x £14,777 x 3 = £221,655

That's a lot of funding......