Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

According to Dr Beth women athletes hold back when competing because it's not polite or feminine to beat other women

however we shouldn't be concerned about that because the top female athletes are actually masquerading as men and taking part in the men's competitions
Who knew😳

so that proves that men and women should all be competing together in one big category 🙂

isn't that right Dr Beth?
(🤣🤣🤣)

Olennas If only they made a bit of effort, eh?

Just to reiterate my earlier post, even where elite female athletes have been suspected of taking banned performance enhancing substances (the current 100m, 200m, 400m and 800m women's records all fit this description), they are still only as fast as top level 13/14 year old boys

also the way in which the hormone /medication is delivered etc will be different to onlgoing naturally produced with consequences.

there are artificial derivatives of testosterone such nandrolone trenbolone methenolone etc but if you take testosterone it's the same as the testosterone which is produced by the body

The consequences/ side effects on the bodies of males and females will be different.

As Posie says, if you include men then you exclude women.

How has that not even been considered when the boundary pushers put forward their ideas to governing bodies etc?

Elite sports - segregated by how hard you try.

I am taking part in the Couldn't Be Arsed At All 20m Dawdle this year. Obvs I am training right now as I sit here with my brew and biscuit.

there are artificial derivatives of testosterone such nandrolone trenbolone methenolone etc but if you take testosterone it's the same as the testosterone which is produced by the body

*nmol in that final one...

The genetics professor who was instrumental in introducing the transgender policy to the NCAA:

Vilain told me that the NCAA’s rules were also aimed at inclusivity and that the governing body aims to give everyone the chance to compete. Creating rules around transgender participation, he admitted, was extremely challenging. He said that the entire concept of anatomical equality for transgender athletes was simply not feasible, and thus, it was not a stated goal of the NCAA’s rules.

“It is not about making everybody biologically equal, and I think that is a common misconception when we start talking about transgender athletes,” he said. “People want transgender [females] to be physiologically identical to [born] females, and if they’re not, it’s unfair. That is not possible.”

Also (in the context of intersex conditions):

Vilain, the UCLA geneticist, sees what he calls a "schizophrenic" conflict between the Chand ruling and the IOC guidelines on transgender female—not intersex—athletes, which was rewritten in November to allow an athlete to participate in competition as a female if her testosterone is below 10 nanomoles per liter, same as the old IAAF standard. "The guidelines are very favorable for transgender athletes, and a great advancement," says Vilain. "But the same rule was struck down for intersex athletes. It's illogical."

If only more people were honest that it's not about fairness, but inclusion. Then a discussion could be had over whether that was reasonable or not. But instead we have the gaslighting and arguments over testosterone levels to try and prove that trans women don't have an advantage.

To Rowan's point - the physiological dose of T that brings a woman into the man's range, 8nmol - 38nmol takes her far outside the woman's range 0.2 - 2.3ml.

It's absurd that taking testosterone doesn't exclude a person from competition just because they're transitioning. My brother had to give up competing for GB because his asthma worsened and he had to choose between taking the drugs that actually worked or competing and risking his health. Medical exemptions get you so far, but there's a line to be drawn when treatment becomes enhancement.

A female bodied transman would be taking a physiological dose of testosterone Ie what would bring her in the range of a person who was born a man.

There is a significant difference between naturally produced hormones and administered artificial ones on all humans.
It is reasonable to recognise that those which are 'cross-sex' will be likely to have additional side-effects to those intended to replicate the sex-specific naturally produced ones (eg H R T)

A female bodied transman would be taking a physiological dose of testosterone Ie what would bring her in the range of a person who was born a man.

An athlete taking testosterone or other anabolic steroids for performance enhancement would be using a dose which is approximately 5 to 10 times (or more) higher that of the normal physiological testosterone levels in doing so he would shut down his own testosterone production temporarily

An athlete might also be using growth hormone endurance athletes would be using EPO and probably lots of other things

If you're taking drugs that limit or enhance your performance, and therefor slot you into a different category, you shouldn't be competing.

A transman on testosterone should not be competing against men. Irrespective of whether or not he still losing, due to his physiology. If he can take testosterone, why can't everyone else?

Likewise, the advantage it gives him over women excludes him.

A transwomen who has taken drugs to reduce their advantage, should not be competing against women, ever.

I don't even think they should be competing against men if they are on drugs. But that's up to men to sort out.

It certainly makes a mockery of long established anti doping/drug testing rules.
If only all those Russian/East German athletes who were disqualified would claim they were trans maybe they could get their medals reinstated.

Mack Beggs wants to compete against boys. Whether for validation reasons or out of a sense of fairness as he takes testosterone.

There are many people, of both sexes, who take part in sporting activities but do not/cannot compete because for whatever reasons they are taking medication (prescribed and not) which is prohibited due to the fact it is known to have unfair performance-enhancing medication.

I don't feel sympathy for people who are doping in such a way they are excluded from fair competition.

They are adults and need to choose their priorities and take responsibility for their choices.

Mack Beggs wants to compete against boys. Whether for validation reasons or out of a sense of fairness as he takes testosterone.
33:0 unbeaten record.
A few girls (2 last year, 1 this year) refusing to fight him for fear of injury.
The testosterone does not appear to be being addressed. Nor did it appear to have been an issue with Schylar, the swimmer who is now in the boys team.
I do have sympathy trans men. I don't know how to argue one rule for trans men and another for trans women but that's what seems to be fair to me.

Yup andyoldlabour, this what happens.

Trans person that says they’re a woman, fights females. Trans person that receives testosterone (that women are banned for taking) because they say they’re a man, fights females.

Women are what men say they are.

From the link about Lauren Jeska.

"Then came a crucial meeting with a UKA official in June 2015, when Jeska was told that her past results were at risk of being erased from the record books if she didn’t submit to the blood tests, Birmingham crown court heard this week. She later told her friends that she felt traumatised by the meeting and suffered flashbacks which she self-diagnosed as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (a diagnosis not made by any of the four psychiatrists who examined her when she was in jail on remand, though some did suggest she was on the autistic spectrum)."

Interesting language choice in that article ("If she didn’t submit to the blood tests" for example).

Obviously we don't know if Jeska was taking anabolic steroids but clearly Jeska did not want to take a blood test. But a few of the side-effects (aggressive behaviour, mood swings, paranoia, manic behaviour, hallucinations and delusions) look like they may have been factors. Jeska stated that UKA were trying to kill Jeska which is obviously untrue.

Jeska's background does seem to have a lot of the markers of male-bodied transgender people that we are seeing at the moment:

• Attended boys' only school
• Religious parents who have fixed ideas of the roles of both sexes
• Suspected autism
• Studied at Leeds
• Rage (violent rage in Jeska's case) at not being considered a real woman

Here is a really weird example of an 18 year old US wrestler who is transitioning to be a male, and even though they are taking Testosterone supplements (something which NONE of the other girls are allowed to do), they are still competing against the girls - with obvious results.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title

@arranbubonicplague,

Thanks for that link, the Twitter comments were interesting, particularly the misunderstood one (from another doctor) which alleged that it simply backed up what the crazy psychologist said on Women's Hour yesterday about Testosterone.
There are so many other factors involved to explain the difference in male/female athletic performance.
I competed with very low Testosterone levels in various sports, but that didn't stop me winning or running marathons, although it may explain why I was always a very passive, laid back non violent person.
Testosterone is of course an Anabolic Steroid.

Thanks arranbubonicplague! That is interesting.

Very interesting Rowan Thank you.