Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

How can someone come out with this with a straight face? It's absolutely ridiculous.

I was watching Sky Sports News the other night and they featured a trans woman who plays in a women's football team. It was all 'this is great' and 'everyone is so accepting' apart from the one nasty team that targeted them with sly tackles etc. Nothing at all was mentioned of their physical advantage, bigger lung capacity, bigger muscles etc. I was more surprised that only one team had appeared to object, the team has a distinct advantage, what is stoping any women's team of being made up of trans women.

Oh and they couldn't play on a men's team, as men are mean and nasty. Sort it out men.

It is good that sport is open to all, and it should be, but current policy is doing women a massive disservice.

Looking at the way that piece of research and it’s conclusions are explained, the language is very interesting. Because it talks specifically about research into trans individuals in competitive sport as a specific group, about which there is little evidence relating to competitive advantage in sport. Which is true.

So despite an overwhelming body of evidence to demonstrate that males will have an advantage over females, you could argue that if we are taking trans people as another (and completely separate) group for research purposes, then there is no research and therefore no evidence.

Are Unis really fit for purpose anymore at delivering high-quality thinking and research?

I'm thinking that many Unis must have got rid of their critically thinking older staff as too expensive .........

Title IX in the US was originally brought in to balance the spending on men and women’s sports. Thanks to Obama’s intervention Title IX has been reinterpreted to apply to gender. That means in order to satisfy the rules funding can go fifty percent to men and fifty percent to transwomen. Natal women don’t have to receive a cent.

I just read the Woman's Hour thread on this. They're all so whiny and petulant. It's all about how mean WH is for discussing these issues on the programme. I mean, imagine women discussing issues that affect women! How dare they! And then some shit about how it's not "transwomen", it's "trans women", and implying that Dr Nic isn't an expert, and that they ought to talk to a trans woman who play sport.

I honestly don't know which is worst: the extreme stupidity, the extreme narcissism, or the quite exceptional degree of petulance. It's like being on a Twitter thread full of Violet Elizabeth Botts.

Sponsors and collaborators
Beth’s main collaborators are Prof Jon Arcelus and Prof Walter Bouman from the University of Nottingham. She has also worked internationally with Dr Tim van de Grift (Amsterdam University Medical Center), Dr Cecilia Dhejne (Karolinska Institutet), Dr Griet De Cuypere (Ghent University).

Beth has also worked collaboratively with the Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health, Gendered Intelligence, Leicester LGBT center and Cancer Research UK

No athletic advantage??
what bullshit
who is funding her research
who is she working for/who is working through her

Nic should not have to even address such idiocy. Giving it air time is acknowledging that it has some kind of credibility.

But the problem is, MPs, the BBC and many, many organisations don't think it is idiocy, they are embracing it.

Beth’s relevant research includes reviewing 31 competitive sports policies regarding trans inclusion. The abstract to this piece of research (available in public domain) concludes:

Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.

Thanks for posting that chart @Neuro, I didn't realise the difference in lung capacity was quite that big!
now I don't feel so bad for being so athletically behind my partner despite doing more training

I have just listened and I'm just fucking fuming!

I don't understand how anyone can be so stupid!

Transwomen deserve to beat women, because they are depressed.

What's next, let anorexic people starve because they are depressed, let people jump off a bridge because they are depressed, let people retire thirty years early because they are depressed?

Would Beth let burglars into her house and do as they please because they are depressed?

I'm inclined to think that, ultimately, Beth has shot herself in the foot so obviously weak and risible was her 'argument'
Therefore, by extension the 'transwomen are women' community also took a hit in the podiatry area 🤭😉

Like dust thanks for making me laugh. I was seriously pissed off slightly peeved to realise our top women athletes were just lazy.
Now where do I get one of these grants from ?

Nic should not have to even address such idiocy. Giving it air time is acknowledging that it has some kind of credibility.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. It's like arguing with flat earthers. We all know it's ridiculous, everyone knows it's ridiculous, why are we even pretending it isn't? Surely even the idiotic Harrop knows it's ridiculous?

What makes me sick to my stomach is that we are actually debating this. How can people be so stupid? I was sat with my mouth open listening to this Beth saying that women could push themselves harder. Between this and fucking Brexit I am utterly despairing.

Look at the correlating heights of m and f.

I can't find anywhere that has researched any correlation to athletic output in trans people, changes etc. We done have the evidence but it's looking pretty obvious.

I haven't read the full thread.

Currently having a do with my asthma and I have a review; no idea what my peak flow should now be but I know I'm over the hill.

When I checked it reminded me of the actual difference in lung capacity between men and women, from a really early age.

Its basically just lies and wishful/ magical thinking from Beth Jones and the like isn't it. So insulting to women and sportswomen everywhere.

Balance is about equal time and opportunity to air views, maybe a bit of prompting for the less experienced in covering their talking points, but not a presenter trying to make both sides look to be of equal worth, when one side might be unsubstantiated nonsense.

Fuckers.

Nic should not have to even address such idiocy. Giving it air time is acknowledging that it has some kind of credibility.

When it, quite shockingly, doesn't.

Women don't try hard enough. Transmen are competing with men, we just don't realise it. Transwomen deserve to beat women, because they are depressed. A future with transwomen dominating female sport isn't a bad thing because misogyny rulz ok.

This sort of argument should not be broadcast. It's just an embarrassment.

It's infuriating. Older women did not have access to decent training, coaching, or equipment and there were no women's events for their disciplines in major competitions (e.g., sprinting didn't turn up for women until the 1960s for the Olympics; 1992 was first biathlon for women in Winter Olympics).

For a brief period, it seems like there was money to spend on women's athletics and other disciplines - and now, women won't make the teams and the money will continue to go to natal males and all of our knowledge will be how to equip and train natal males.

I have always felt that THIS will be what peak trans a nation of sports lovers and of fair play, And the TRA’s know it too. Just watch. Its so ludicrous. And as an aside where are the female to male athletes competing... Funny that.