Can boys be civilised, as in, made civil?

the whole "girls are angels and boys are unruly" is nothing more than a stereotype. There is absolutely no biological reason why a boy cannot grow up to be a strong, respectful gentleman.

There is certainly no shortage of cases where girls (from a toddler up to adult women) can behave even worse than boys/men. And if alcohol is involved then all the more so.

It all depends on how they are brought up and what they are exposed to for eg what others expect of them and if they are treated a certain way because of their sex.

I was a boy, and I think the OP has a point. Especially this - 'Or have they been shrugging their shoulders all along and not even attempted to avoid what they believe is typical male behaviour?'

Some people are just shit parents. Coupled with that, societies have always had a use for violent men, and still do. Sports and cannon fodder. Entertainment and war. So it's tolerated, to a degree. Encouraged even.

The title of your post is ridiculous and offensive.

Ms Juniper This was my point. It is more to do with perceptions than reality. I was out with my DC last week. Another mum commented on the behaviour of the children about typical boys playing noisily while the girls sat quietly. My DD and another little girl were colouring with some pens we had brought with us while her DSs were playing with a toy car that they had brought with them. This went on for about 5 mins and then her little boys came over and started colouring. They then sat and drew pictures for about half an hour. Nobody commented on their behaviour even though they sat quietly for a considerably longer period of time than they had been playing.

MsJuniper
Absolutely there is. Your DS6 sounds adorable, my boys both teens (well one technically adult now) were much the same. All children are capable of being overexcited and boisterous. You're fortunate you just get the "boys eh" comment. I was asked if they'd been tested for ADHD. Of course that was what the media were promoting at the time. Thank goddess for their stillness, with puzzles and stories and craft.

There is definitely an element of confirmation bias. My 6yo DS loves board games, reading, puzzles, crafts and role play. He also likes football and superheroes. He can sit for ages playing happily, loves a cuddle, speaks politely but can also get overexcited, boisterous, mischievous - and I will inevitably get a comment along the "boys eh" lines. So much so my DH and I joke about it. It's like people just can't or don't want to see anything that doesn't fit with their world view.

Of course boys can be civilised. Although I'd be interested in what your definition of civilised is. Because frankly, as a "tomboy" (apologies for those that hate that term) I was an absolute handful. Kicked two guys arses (6th grade) that we're picking on me. At the same time I was top of the class academically.

Yes society (patriarchy) has a lot to do with it but I do believe how they are raised has a lot to do with it as well. Don't get me wrong not Mum blaming at all, but, the saying it takes a village to raise a child, does have relevance imo. Let's be real, if you weren't getting what was needed from your parent/parents, did you not seek advice/opinion from others?

My DS's have been complimented as young children in a restaurant numerous times. Civilised enough? Or what about the times they've stepped up defending girls (also boys) being bullied. Civilised enough? Or how about the times when they have (amazingly) reacted calmly with a teacher yelling in their face, accusing them of something they haven't done? - This actually happened to DS2 today.

Or what about when for the good of the team (teammates injury) they step into an unfamiliar position and are subjected to criticism by the coach, and still put their head down and do their best. Only to then express their disappointment and anxiety in the car on the way home. I think that's pretty civilised. Because frankly as the mum, I had to step away before I stormed up and told the coach what a patronising prick he is. But yeah that's just female socialisation. Isn't it?

Rant over.

@mrsmuddlepies

This whole thread would be sorted out with the episodes of no more girls and boys.

I must add though the bbc experiments were based on mainly middle class babies. But yes it's a good reflection. Ime gender social stereotypes start to be picked up a bit later though; my ds went through a pink is for girls phase around 3-4 picked up from peers at nursery.

Simply why stereotypes need to be challenged. There's always going to be children who fit the traditional stereotypes; the key is to try to reframe life and labels for them so it is not a self fulfilling stereotype by proxy.

Phuquocdreams I mean boys, from birth, will be allowed to get away with more than girls because they’re boys and that’s what boys do. Girls will be spoken too more softly and praised for quiet “good” behaviour and so consequently will learn not to be as rowdy and boisterous. This then feeds into the parents’ assumption that girls are naturally better behaved because they haven’t taken their own treatment of the children into consideration. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy which they then see as innate rather than a result of conditioning from birth. The confirmation bias then comes in when their children are in a mixed group. They already have these ideas about girls v boys and because their children have been socialised to behave that way they conform to them and they are convinced that they were right all along.

Neurotrash, I started a thread on here about the experiment they did to see how babies associated domestic chores with either men and women. All of the babies tested recognised both sexes as equally associated with domestic chores and baby care. The only exception was car maintenance which babies associated with men only.
I had just eleven comments. I wondered whether this forum does not want to acknowledge progress with regard to equal domestic responsibilities.

Noteven, is the confirmation bias not the other way ie the belief that boys are bad and girls are good? That assumption is screaming out of the OP. You can’t deny that most mothers in the UK seem to want girls. So boys “bad” behaviour would be noted more and taken as confirmation they are more, whereas girls bad behaviour is ignored or explained away? Look I don’t have girls so maybe I haven’t noticed but I have never seen girls being chastised for loud, physical behaviour. Who is chastising them?

It’s confirmation bias. People tend to look for patterns and when they see ones that confirm what they already think they subconsciously log it as ‘proof’ so they see boys behaving badly and think “boys will be boys” and move on but will comment on girls behaving in that way because they believe it to be unusual. Or they’ll come up with some explanation that makes an excuse for it like “oh she’s a tomboy”, “she’s had too much sugar”, “she’s influenced by her brothers”, etc. It’s caused by uncritical thinking and reliance on stereotypes and obvs is a load of nonsense.

I have two gentle boys and two tomboy girls. I would say the only differences I have found raising them is that my boys seemed to need a lot more physical exercise than my girls.

I think it is very much about role models: my DH, BiL and FiL are all excellent men and my boys very much have their values rather than the ones some of their friends seem to have.

Like a poster upthread, the stand out violent man I know came from a very violent family. And my male friends in general are very much turning into their dads in middle age. I think how people are raised is difficult for them to escape.

Nature first - eg base character can be seen at 6 mo - nurture there after.

I remember one of the 'Educating ... Programmes (could have been Manchester) and there was an incident between two students, male and female. The boy was punished and excluded. There was a huge outcry because, of course, the camera footage showed it was the girl who had been responsible.
There was then a social media debate showing concern that many people in authority expect boys to be in the wrong. Label a child etc.
As a teacher, I saw misbehaviour from both male and female students.I think it is dangerous to label certain types of behaviour as 'girl' behaviour or 'boy' behaviour. There is a lot of research to show that a child quickly learns to 'label' themselves.

Yes, boys can be parented to be lovely men in the future

But it's hard work to combat the modelling of other men, and male socialisation

It's entirely possible though

I have put a lot of effort into teaching my dds to be empathetic and considerate what kind of girls have you got? Are they not empathetic and considerate by nature and therefore don't need to be taught to be? Tut tut.

Unlike my typical male boys who are aggressive and destructive but boys will be boys

I think boys and girls have roughly equal propensity to be difficult and aggressive it's just that we (at all levels of society from the small nuclear family to much wider social groups and media etc) respond differently to the same behaviour
in girls we chastise and pathologize behaviour which in boys we condone and encourage

But anyway it seems to me that the question asked by the OP boils down to 'is it nature or nurture?'
don't you think that's a bit of an outdated question?
I mean come on the two are inextricably intertwined and impossible to untangle

The way that the thread has evolved has created the discussion that has followed. It blamed parents (mainly mothers) for boys behaviour and male violence. The vast majority of these boys will mature out of it.

People have responded with their own experiences because the thread was very much at the individual/familial level.

But the problem is societal and much more is going on than parental influence - peers, schools... If the thread had started the discussion at the societal level (openly rather than sublimely), the thread would have gone a completely different way.

I find this suggestion that boys are necessarily more aggressive and 'difficult' than girls to be offensive. That's not my experience at all - having had a daughter and two sons. My daughter, for example, was always far more unruly. And my two sons were generally very well behaved and accommodating as young children.

I agree phuquoc am loud, and not compliant or sedentary at all. I am also civilized. The two are not the same thing.

To be honest, one of the scariest things about being a mother of boys is the thought that their father and their peers will have more of an outcome in how they turn out than I will.

The OP is just so totally confused it’s nonsensical. Can boys be civilized? What do you mean by civil? Quiet, sedentary, compliant? That’s what I was as a child, and I’ve no real desire to bring up any child to be so, much as I’m sure it would be easier as a parent. But then after castigating boys for being a bit loud, physical and unruly, she moves on to aggression. That doesn’t follow. Aggressive men are maybe the product of poor male role models, hard childhoods, yes and probably toxic masculinity. teaching boys to be kind, respectful of women and others, building up their self-esteem, teaching them to express emotions and, importantly, there being good male role models - all very important but aiming for them to turn into compliant, sedentary individuals sitting with a colouring book - not so much.

RiverTam subtext can be drowned out if the OP is worded provocatively enough.

Right, I get that Tallulah. As parents of boys, we can acknowledge it and deal with it on the level of our children being complex, unique individuals. Which I believe most of the “defensive” mothers on this thread are trying to do, seeing as no one has excused their son behaving with violence and aggression.

But in the level of “societal problem waiting to happen”, surely that’s a problem for, well, society, not just the mothers of sons, as we can only raise and influence our own children on an individual level. Does that make sense?

Like I’ve said, I think this thread has got the reaction it has because of how the OP worded their OP. It did come across as “these mothers of boys! Always shrugging and making excuses!”