Why should men support feminism?

I phrased my response the way I did precisely because I assumed my own interpretation was not the one you intended. Otherwise, I might have just leapt straight to "How dare you say feminists are like racists?!".

That being said, black civil rights organizations do not hold the best interests of white people at heart. Regardless, I support them, because I recognize that white people as a whole do not have the best interests of black people at heart and that black people deserve to have their perspectives heard and their rights respected. They deserve to speak up for themselves without being denounced as racists.

It is the same as my support of feminism - women deserve to have their own perspectives considered and represented in society, alongside those of men. Even if you (general you) believe that a woman's sole or primary contribution to society is in childbearing and childrearing, well, isn't that enough?

The "traditional" roles of men and women are not inherently bad. This complementarian ideal of the mother raising the children and keeping the household while the father acts as a middleman who brings resources from the outside world to the family unit to be utilized by the mother (buying clothing and groceries, preparing meals, taking children to the doctor etc) is not a bad setup.

The problem lies with the fact that if a middleman decides he wants to screw you over, then he is in a great position to do so - he's got all the earning power. And if you are a mother with children relying on you, and if you have sacrificed your financial independence in order to better care for them, then there is very little you can do about it.

I think that is wrong. Money is power, and if men are the ones making the money then men are ultimately the ones with the power.

Women do the dangerous and demanding work of bringing the next generation of our species into the world. That, if for no other reason, should entitle women to have a say in society, to have representation and independence.

A bit rambly, but seriously, women who fight to have their voices heard should not be dismissed as man-haters. Standing up for yourself is not hatred.

Scott - not everyone benefits from a degree (particularly men doing arts courses at certain unis).
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-46345527
I’ve heard of women very discriminated against in the construction/engineering industry. I don’t know about hgv/logistics. Maybe we (and industry) should encourage non-grad women into these roles as they earn a shed load more than caring/early years?
While I support knocking down the wealth/status male stereotype - maybe men shouldn’t take looks and age so much into account when dating (they might be missing out on women who would otherwise be kind and non-materialistic). I don’t think i’d Get many swipes on tinder.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-46221187
40% of women who had taken mat leave in past 10 years missed being at work and 20% wishes they’d returned sooner.

Pumpkin - there is probably an optimal birth rate for developed societies to smooth out the demographic transition. Deficits can be made up by immigration as the world birth rate is probably still higher than the planet can sustain (i’m Guessing here though). UK birth rate is reasonably high, so the difficulties of parenthood are not putting off a huge number of people. However you make a good point that there may be cost saving in mental health. As a mum of 2 under 5s my preference is for childcare support to be flexible (ie money) rather than state childcare place as it would fit my shift pattern and values better.

Problem is, I can't think of a single mother I know who'd likely rather be in meetings than looking after her newborn child

raises hand I did (though in my case the place would be “in lab doig science”.

And even if I’m a freak we would expect given the current situation that more women would either genuinely or at least appear to “prefer” to stay home (since they’ve been told their whole life that’s what they ought to want).

Hey it’s similar to the point in my other point about how more women are likely to marry up because statistics. Which you conveniently ignored to point out a “gotcha” case. Speaking of your garbage man-CEO example, I don’t know many male CEOs who married their cleaning lady (they usually just sexually harass them - best of both worlds!)

Scott I really would appreciate you engaging with any part of my post k thx.

You "can't be arsed"? Alrighty, then. Anyone else have an alternate interpretation of Scott's statement, since apparently he can't be bothered to explain?

Since it sounded to me like what you said, my guess would be that is what he meant but when it was spelled out he realised it was indefensible? I'd really like to be wrong about that.

Ha ha ha!!!

You "can't be arsed"? Alrighty, then. Anyone else have an alternate interpretation of Scott's statement, since apparently he can't be bothered to explain?

I can't think of a single mother I know who'd likely rather be in meetings than looking after her newborn child. All of my female colleagues and friends seemed to embrace motherhood and enjoy it.

Scott, you make statements in almost every of your posts that are... you know,.. maybe you should try to remember how you received these ideas, because they reassert the myths of the patriarchy and do not match the reality as it is lived by many women.

I can remember vividly a few women, actually, who had their newborn babies in the office.. But more to the point the words "enjoy" does not come to my mind when I think of sleepless nights, the pain of breastfeeding, wiping poopoo bottoms, cleaning the loo, scrubbing the cooker. I don't exactly 'embrace' any of these things, but rather they somehow embrace me like at Ted Baker. I just bite the bullet and do what I have to do. The smile of my children is my heart delight, as it is for their father. I rejoice at the meaningful interactions with them, but apart from that , I would really rather be in the meeting then tidy their bedroom. As I watch them brushing their teeth, my mind rehearses slides for that presentation I need to prepare tonight, sas to bring to fruition that project I also care about.

Okay, enlighten me.

So what did you mean by it?

Problem is, I can't think of a single mother I know who'd likely rather be in meetings than looking after her newborn child

Personally I found it a considerable relief to get back to writing software during the day rather than looking after my beloved small child all the time ... but I don't think I'd have admitted the sheer bloody boredom of much of babycare to a colleague so the OP probably has no real idea what his female coworkers truly prefer ... conversely, I rather think DH would have happily traded a lot of meetings and business trips for pram pushing. But 20 years ago in his industry that wouldn't have been remotely possible. Part time working for both of us would have been ideal when she was tiny... we did get to this a few years later when he downshifted and I negotiated PT hours. Very good... the catch is, we're both PhD scientists so half of each of our salaries is still decent money. I'm fully aware it's a privileged position.

I'd say it's more like saying 'why should black people support the ideology of racists?'

Interesting. So:

Men = disadvantaged group (compared to women)

Feminists = Man-haters

Am I misinterpreting that?

The only potential risk with both parents going part time is a dilution of one good well paid job into two low paid gig economy jobs, a race to the bottom in which the pay gap is levelled down and the parental labour remains unrecognised. I read on another thread a few posts from women who leave home when their partner comes in after a night shift, they hardly see each-other, and when they do, they are exhausted and on the edge, they both come home from work to care for children, they are exhausted, everyone is super stressed. And guess what, the husband is considering his position...

SaraCare, yes, you addressed the point about both parent working part time being a better alternative.I was trying to say I didn't mean it as a personal criticism, sorry if it came across this way.

I'd say it's more like saying 'why should black people support the ideology of racists?.

eh? What is?

Pumkinsoup some very interesting reading there

Surely this is like asking, ‘Why shouldn’t all white people be massive joyous racists?’

What world would you like to grow old in?

More in detail depth

www.fhu55.com/sites/default/files/hanehalki/Okumalar/Children%20as%20Public%20Goods.pdf
Increases in the private costs of raising children, however, are exerting tremendous economic pressure on parents, particularly mothers. Economists need to analyze the contributions of nonmarket labor to the development of human capital: as children become increasingly public goods, parenting becomes an increasingly public service.
Children.. have been described as consumer durables providing a flow of utility to their parents, investment goods providing income, and public goods with both positive and negative externalities. Children are also people, with certain rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
However we categorize children, we know that the consequences of raising them are changing. Economic development tends to increase their costs to parents in general, and mothers in particular. Yet the growth of transfer payments and taxation of future generations "socialize" many of the benefits of children. All citizens of the United States enjoy significant claims upon the earnings of future working-age adults through Social Security and public debt. But not all citizens contribute equally to the care of these future adults. Individuals who devote relatively little time or energy to child-rearing are free-riding on parental labor.
Increases in the cost of children have also been associated with trends that shift a greater share of the cost to mothers, such as new child-custody laws, growth in the proportion of families maintained by women alone, and poor enforcement of fathers' child-support responsibilitie..
However, public policies have provided far greater benefits to the elderly than to mothers and children on their own, particularly in the United States. Social Security expenditures dramatically reduced poverty among elderly men and married couples

Those who benefit from children's future income do so partly at the expense of present-day parents…
Moreover, there is no reason to assume that parents are equally affected: mothers often invest more time, energy, and affection in their children than do fathers..
Inputs of parental labor are crucial. Yet estimates of the value of nonmarket work lump child care in with other tasks and value it at close to minimum wage (Robert Eisner, 1989). Recent studies of the accumulation of human capital define it entirely in terms of formal schooling (Dale Jorgenson and Barbara Fraumeni, 1989). Official definitions of the poverty line ignore nonmarket labor, with perverse results such as failing to consider the cost of a paid substitute for a single mother's time when she works outside the home (Trudi Renwick and Barbara Bergmann, 1993)..
When an infant cries in the middle of the night, why does a mother drag herself out of bed to feed it? … Both moral commitments and social norms are subject to erosion as the price of satisfying them increases, and even altruistic preferences may be endogenous. In the long run, failure to remunerate commitments to parental labor may weaken the values, norms, and preferences that supply it. Most economists ridicule the utopian socialist vision of a society based entirely on altruism. Is a utopian vision of a family sustained by love alone any more realistic?
.. the incidence of desertion and divorce has increased rapidly among all families, partly because men's values and preferences seem to have shifted more rapidly than women's away from family commitments…
. In an economy increasingly based on individual careers, parenthood seems to promise moral and cultural rewards but no economic rewards…

[It goes on to discuss how to incentivise parenting, citing forcing women to stay at home via traditional conservative policies as one of options...]

.. *In fiscal terms, children represent a positive externality. There are good reasons to believe that we are currently underinvesting in human capital as well as flouting our collective moral obligation for children's welfare.
The best alternative is to promote more equal distribution of the costs of children as well as more equal opportunity for children themselves. Improved child-support enforcement would help, as would increased public subsidies for child care. But however necessary, these are not sufficient. Parents should be compensated for their efforts through a greater tax exemption or credit for raising children. And families with children should be guaranteed the means to obtain a minimum income above the poverty line. While there are good reasons to encourage all capable adults to engage in job training or paid employment, it is important to remember that nonmarket work is still work. In fact, it is probably the most important work we do.