Why should men support feminism?

Why are single parent families poor?

Isn't that because single mothers cannot reconcile childbirth and care with high paying careers, free childcare is unavailable and the gender pay gap exists, especially at the low sills end, because the work those women do is is valued at next to nothing? Because caring and household tasks are assumed to be available for free?

Why are single mothers single? Why did the father leave or were kicked out?

Taxation going to single mothers was mentioned, but why don't we hear anything about compelling absent fathers to pay their due?

CritEqual, why aren't you arguing for absent fathers to give half of their income to their estranged children?

CritEqual- glad to see you’re prepared to withdraw the “shrieking” and “blue arsed fly” remarks, if not the “unhinged” one.

Could you say why anyone should be interested in discussing anything with you when they were the first words that came into your head when a woman made a perfectly reasonable, pretty low key remark?

CritEqual

"If you want to know the biggest predictor of where most masculine dysfunction lies it's from growing up in single parent families. Now that's not to say all men who grow up in single parent families are destined to violence but all manner of things like likliehood of ending up in prison, suicide and a tonne of other things corrolate with this. It's also not ideal for little girls either for what it's worth!"

Isn't there also a correlation of growing up poor? Which does potentially fit with many single parent families.

Because is not about equality, letting women be treated like men, its about liberating women from oppression by system patriarchy.

As Robert Webb said in How Not To Be a Boy.

"‘The Trick’ is the family code-word for the incoming tide of gender bullshit that Ezzie, Dory and their friends (including the boys) will spend their lives wading through. The idea that boys and girls, men and women, have different roles to play in life according to the different contributions they make to a shared reproductive system is one they are going to have to deal with whether we like it or not. So they might as well have a name for it. You may think that introducing the idea of ‘the patriarchy’ into the minds of small children is the ultimate in liberal overkill."

So yes we (men) are on top in patriarchy, but we are still trapped in those roles. Its our job as men to enumerate and name those traps, its not women's job to do as part of feminism. We can learn from feminism, but we can not tell it it has to look after us.

Asserting some things without evidence isn't reasonable. However if we're going to move foward as a society it's more important that we engage with those we disagree with probably more than engaging with those that we do. No need to be friends or send each other Christmas cards or anything.

I'm happy to sincerely apologise for the shrieking blue bloody murder comment if it helps move the conversation foward, as upon reflection it was unfair and inflamatory and a very poor choice of words on my part. I'm not so convinced unhinged is innaccurate, as I said before just taking activities men do and correlating that with male violence with no attempt to connect the two is not rational, but am happy to agree on the porn thing as I've said before. There are clear links between pornography and dysfunction.

Point of order I completely missed that Betrand HAD indeed mentioned porn but for some reason my mind edited it out in my reply, apologies.

Sounds a fair summary to me Hestia

Is there any reason you think people might want to engage with you after that?

I for one am quite surprised that he thinks women want to engage with him after he quite clearly stated that he is only interested in supporting women's rights if there's something in it for him.

It is quite strange that he sticks around and expects cookies for ... I am not sure, offering to stop participating in patriarchal oppression if we volunteer to do unpaid labour for him individually, or men in general?

Like a plantation owner who goes to his neighbour's slaves and tells them he'll free them from slavery if they and all the children they ever have will then do fulltime unpaid work on his plantation in all eternity out of gratitude, and voluntarily let him whip them because he gets off on it. Which is totally different from slavery.

Any woman tell me if I misunderstood something there?

"I think it's lazy in the extreme to just take a bunch of stuff a lot of men seem to like, and shriek blue bloody murder about it makes you look unhinged and out of touch with reality."
You know what's lazy in the extreme? Taking something woman has said quite calmly and reasonably and characterise it as "
sheieking blue bloody murder" and "looking unhinged". Is there any emreason you think people might want to engage with you after that?

So many invented "studies, such a lack of genuine sources or authorities to support them.

Well first of all video games do not cause violence, study after study has found that to be the case, so sallying forth with a lot of wanting to take men's toys away from them with little to no evidence to back it up achieve's what exactly??

I think it's lazy in the extreme to just take a bunch of stuff a lot of men seem to like, and shriek blue bloody murder about it makes you look unhinged and out of touch with reality.

I'd give you the porn thing (where you to have brought it up!), it's pretty solidly backed up by the data that it's unhealthy and leads to all manner of dysfunctions, poor relationships and quite frankly despicable things done to a lot of women in the name entertainment.

If you want to know the biggest predictor of where most masculine dysfunction lies it's from growing up in single parent families. Now that's not to say all men who grow up in single parent families are destined to violence but all manner of things like likliehood of ending up in prison, suicide and a tonne of other things corrolate with this. It's also not ideal for little girls either for what it's worth!

Now where I have a big problem with feminism, (and fwiw MRA's too in a mirror like fashion!) is they seem to just want to blame this all on deadbeat dads, I understand it's a sacred cow of feminism to never hold women responsible for their own actions, or at the very least interpret every female choice or action as occuring under the oppressive strictures of a dominating male patriarchy, therefore freeing any and all women of moral responsbility of everything but the very worst of the worst behaviour. MRA's too for their part want to demonize ALL single mothers and letting off any man from their responsibility.

Do you think there is any chance men and women collectively could have a bit of a sit down and do what they were always going to have to in the end and talk with one another? Without arming up the constant blamethrowers and point it at the other side? We could work out the best way of raising children ie in a strong two parent household (I literally couldn't give the figgiest of figs wether it's a man or woman that does this!!), and try to create structural incentives and education for boys and girls to reinforce what makes a good parent, and look at what is best for children?

ScottCheggJnr the thread was not the context for your question and you have ignored most of the responses yourself.

MrGHardy excellent post.

1. Because most of the things women tackle, are because of men.

1. As are most of the things you want to tackle.

1. Most often men's issues are only brought up as a "but what about us menz".

1. If you are for "equality" as you say, that necessarily implies you should be for equality in those issues where women are disadvantaged. But you are not else you wouldn't ask, on top of that you are doing 3.

So maybe you aren't for equality after all. Quelle surprise.

I think it is pretty feeble for a man to claim that it can't be challenged. It smacks of the " we were only following orders" mentality.

I've seen men call stuff out, individually and collectively, the challenge to the mouthy Dad at the children's football match, the hard stare at the office joker.

Hardly Rosa Parkes refusing to give up her seat on the bus, I realise, but every challenge is important in breaking a toxic culture.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

The thing is that there is a lot within "male culture" that tacitly reinforces violence-from porn to films to video games to shouting "Get stuck in!" at junior football. If men collectively rejected that stuff, then its influence would start to wane.

Errol interesting link thank you, re self licensing.
Clear as day now that I have a name for it.

This collective guilt thing is absurd, the only men it will appeal to are neutrotic men highly unlikely to be violent anyway, or those who will just pay it lip service because it's the correct virtue to signal to gain access and brownie points with women. So what does that approach achieve exactly?

If there is section of the male population that require censure on this is it's either the violent men themselves as individuals or perhaps any fathers that refused to be present in their lives and provide the correct role model template on how to behave in a non-violent manner.

My adult daughter sAys that a man saying he's a feminist is a red flag

A man saying generic things he thinks women will like is a red flag, in general.

I have had men tell me that they love romance and aren't interested in porn, too.

The attempts to deceive me were rather pathetic, but it never hurts to be careful.

You know, if I was part of a class that was responsible for 98% of all violent crime, I would certainly My be thinking about whether there was anything I could do to change that. I wouldn't -I hope-be focussing on the fact that I, personally hadn't beaten anyone up recently.

I don’t necessarily think you would.

The only thing you can actively control is being a decent person yourself and occasionally call someone out when he/she crosses the line (if you can do it in a safe enough manner).

I don’t disagree with male violence, being a male problem, but you as an individual can do very little about it. It’s not about remaining silent or similar it’s just very difficult (impossible) to make a meaningful difference. I used to play football on a relatively good level, not any more now I play in the somewhat mixed (3 women – 15men) team of my alumni student association (we almost always lose but that’s okay, I learned to accept that), you’re treated to all sorts of wonderful chants like those about our mums being whores … . Speaking up in this case would mean filing a complaint, we always did, other team pays 65 € - dealt with (apparently weird because you don’t have to take it personal you see). Fine you can start to give workshops, TED talks, whatever. The people who read/watch/visit them, generally do not need them (except educators, they need them). I don’t know if you know Damso, was relatively unknown until the women’s council discovered that his lyrics are sometimes of a misogynous nature (an example: “women be careful if you mess with me. I become dangerous. Then I can slit your throats.”, and on and on). As a result his popularity boomed.

You can give a good example and that’s that. It’s not that other, real-life, women ask more of you – you have to adopt something that resembles a fairness principle and that’s enough for most (most people aren’t activists).