Why should men support feminism?

Oops, bold fail Trying again...

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

What isn't straightforward about equality?

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

That's because it is women who are unequal - who get paid less, who get penalised for having children, who still work more hours unpaid in the home and caring for others. Of course there are individual exceptions but this is still the pattern of our society. The challenges women face are structural and culturally ingrained. And they affect all women to a greater or lesser degree, unlike the examples you give.

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

There's nothing to stop you being a feminist AND focusing on men's issues. They are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, as pps have pointed out, greater equality for the sexes and erosion of damaging gender stereotypes and expectations would help men as well as women. Also, isn't there something rather unpleasant about celebrating the exclusion of women from positions of power and influence?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

The patriarchy arose in the past but it is maintained in the present by millions of actions, large and small, on the part of both men and women. What does 'not actively fighting' mean? It sounds a lot like letting a highly damaging status quo continue. Every time you don't challenge or question inequality, whether it's pay levels, or women at senior levels being denied the right to work flexible hours, or a man who jokes about 'women of a certain age', or your wife doing your laundry, or your daughter thinking engineering isn't for girls, you are propping up the patriarchy.

This is a genuine question.

Then I hope you will think carefully about the answers you receive.

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

What isn't straightforward about equality?

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

That's because it is women who are unequal - who get paid less, who get penalised for having children, who still work more hours unpaid in the home and caring for others. Of course there are individual exceptions but this is still the pattern of our society. The challenges women face are structural and culturally ingrained. And they affect all women to a greater or lesser degree, unlike the examples you give.

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

There's nothing to stop you being a feminist AND focusing on men's issues. They are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, as pps have pointed out, greater equality for the sexes and erosion of damaging gender stereotypes and expectations would help men as well as women. Also, isn't there something rather unpleasant about celebrating the exclusion of women from positions of power and influence?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

The patriarchy arose in the past but it is maintained in the present by millions of actions, large and small, on the part of both men and women. What does 'not actively fighting' mean? It sounds a lot like letting a highly damaging status quo continue. Every time you don't challenge or question inequality, whether it's pay levels, or women at senior levels being denied the right to work flexible hours, or a man who jokes about 'women of a certain age', or your wife doing your laundry, or your daughter thinking engineering isn't for girls, you are propping up the patriarchy.

This is a genuine question.

Then I hope you will think carefully about the answers you receive.

I also want my sons to realise their feelings and preferences DO matter. If they're into football and Fortnight than that's fine in moderation, similarly if they can't stand team games and like Minecraft that's fine as well. What I want them to feel is not to let people think they are essentially wild animals with no control over impulses or that they are cannon fodder next time there's a war. That they are people first and personalities first and their preferences and interests do not make them less of a boy than anyone else.

a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc

Two options really.

One is think about why women talk about this being their experience and as a result teach your son to be intelligently questioning, to understand that violence and abusive behaviour is unacceptable under any circumstances and won't lead to any fulfilling relationship for him, and to be a good father.

The other is to just ask women to stop talking about it. #nodebate has been used by other MRA groups, but frankly it hasn't worked well for them.

I think feminism benefits men too but a lot of it is related to definitions of feminism. I discuss feminism with my student son a lot who watches some men's rights stuff mainly from the US on you tube and comes up with words like gynocentric and thinks that feminism means all men belong to "the patriarchy" and are trying to oppress all women. I'm a feminist who is uncomfortable with the term the patriarchy.
For me feminism is about everyone achieving their potential , male or female. Males have traditionally suppressed females in our society because they are stronger and we have been socialised to put their needs first. This doesn't mean there is a conspiracy amongst men to do this though. Having a frustrated partner with low self esteem isn't good for either sex. Men do seem to see maid like qualities in women desirable in a way that women don't though and I do think women have to fight not to do the "wife work" in a relationship.

With a truly equal society, men don't have to worry about being the provider and the boss all the time. My DH knows that if he gets sick I an do everything that needs to be done and live on my income for a while since we have a decent skills match and can fill in for each other. He will not have to worry about a descent into poverty because I am unable to access employment based on my gender.

As a mother of sons, i'd also like the partners of my DC (if they choose a woman) and the mothers of any grandchildren to be equal in society and to be successful in whatever they do in their own right and not just as part of a couple.

a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc

That is not feminism.

That is toxic masculinity.

Interesting that you want to ask what's in it for you, intentionally on a feminism forum.

So you've sought out women interested in women's rights, come here on purpose to ask them. That's a lot of effort to make on something you apparently don't care about, so the question is why are you annoyed enough by women thinking about women to come here and demand they explain themselves?

Oh ta Mel
I read about her and was so impressed by her work but I couldn’t recall who she was but did read about the whataboutry she got

littlebrowndog that was Jessica Eaton, she's a powerhouse and I love her. She set up and runs the first mental health and wellbeing centre for men in the UK. It's still one of very few. She also runs Victim Focus which focusses on reducing victim blaming which increases the trauma experienced by women after CSE/CSA and abuse. Constantly gets a pile of whataboutery from men about Victim Focus.

So that they can have a willing partner and helpmeet rather than a slave who resents and hates them - or no one at all, because we've got pissed off and set up our own countries away from the current crop of dominant males?
When outcomes are more equal for women the 'might is right' mentality doesn't work, which works quite well for most men as well. Generally societies that are more equal are more equal for all, men and women. We all benefit.

Well, because, if you're a selfish bastard, you could do it because liberation from the oppression of patriarchy benefits men nearly as much as it does women because it frees them from toxic ideas of masculinity and violence. Or if you're not, because it's the right thing to do.

And no, feminism isn't bad if you have sons. What a crock. My sons just have a wider understanding of systems of oppression and how they work. They are better human beings for it.

its not an equalities movement, its a liberation movement which might frame it differently for you.

And a lot of the issues for men are part of the patriarchy too so it all helps everyone.

There was a lady who posted on here who ran 2 organisations
One was for men where there was a drop in centre for men and also I think outreach to help men with mental health loneliness and other things

She als o ran much the same for women

She said that women never questioned her about but wha5 about the women regarding her men’s organisation

But she said every single day she had men questioning her about why was she centring women in the women’s organisation and what about men

Why should men care about equality for women??

"but isn't feminism bad if you have a son? would you want your son growing up in a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc and it ends up becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy?"
Is that what feminists do? Shit, I've been doing it wrong for 40 years.

but isn't feminism bad if you have a son? would you want your son growing up in a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc and it ends up becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy?

I am white. I grew up in a world where white police officers were killing young black men. Where black people were discriminated against horribly. My black and Asian friends feared assault (lots of BNP in my area). I knew. I didn't think I was the problem, I thought the system was the problem and I wanted an end to oppression. I was in the Anti Nazi League.

I didn't ignore the oppression because it wasn't me FFS. And I certainly didn't turn into a racist because I heard racism existed. Any prejudice I carry is the result of the system, not the fight against the system.

The Scandinavian countries all have more equality for women than the British society does. All three countries range higher on the happiness index, proving that both women and men are happier in more equalitarian societies.

Feminism helps society in general.

Look at countries and societies where women's rights are restricted, where their testimony is not valued, where they alone are required to behave in specific ways and punished for disobeying. These countries/societies are always governed by totalitarian regimes, often theocracies. Dissent of any sort is repressed and education is restricted.

I tried to find the study I mentioned and found this. It can go either way

www.reuters.com/article/us-maths-girls/girls-do-badly-at-math-when-told-boys-better-study-idUSN2242207920070524

but isn't feminism bad if you have a son? would you want your son growing up in a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc and it ends up becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy?

I don't tell my sons they are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads .

I tell them I love them, that they are kind, intelligent and handsome, I tell them that they should find something that they love to do and do it the best they can, that hard work gives you more choices and opportunities and that they should seek a partner in life and treat them exactly as they would like to be treated themselves. I set them the example of trying to do exactly that myself as does their dad.

We should be telling all children to look beyond the horizon and to strive for what they want. Not everyone can be or do anything they want, but they can definitely try their hardest.

Tracy ... that experiment sounds like a demonstration of 'stereotype threat', but configured in the opposite direction to how, for a long time, it actually existed in real life. The feminist point of view is to not tell any child they're bad at maths. Fairness for girls does not mean unfairness towards boys.

but isn't feminism bad if you have a son? would you want your son growing up in a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc and it ends up becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy?

wasn't there once an experiment were 2 classes of boys and 2 classes of girls were given a maths test. One class of boys were told before the test something like "girls are much cleverer and better at maths than boys". The boys who weren't told that performed about the same as the girls, but the boys who were told they weren't as good performed much worse than the girls.

My point is a self-fulfilled prophecy is a real thing. Telling girls they can do or be anything they want is great but I think feminism is unfairly harsh on males.

Because it's possible to care about more than one cause.

I'm a feminist, I'm also a vegetarian, I suffer from mental illness myself so I try where possible to support ALL who also suffer (FYI men may have higher rates of completed suicide but I believe the number of people who attempt suicide weights towards women more, this is more to do with preferred methods than intent), I have a 17 yr old daughter so I do what I can re youth rights too eg nmw inequality.

Broadly I'm a socialist, I believe in equality for everyone.

Because half the population is female oppressing half of society is damaging to society as a whole

Because toxic masculinity which hurts men has its roots in patriarchy/misogyny

Because we still have a LONG way to go till we're anywhere NEAR equality for women & girls. Those girls and women are mens mothers, sisters, wives, daughters etc so if you don't believe in equality for them do you even care about them?