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Original poster

Why should men support feminism?

292 replies

ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 14:33

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

This is a genuine question.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 19:30

I don't disagree with this, but it's an aspect which is rarely touched upon.

It should be. Reducing the deleterious effects of 'structural sexism' may require better analysis of the issues and serious efforts to deal with them, not just apply sticking plaster to systems which aren't fit for purpose in the 20th century. If done properly it's win-win-win for company, women and men, whether parents/carers or not.

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 19:27

Perhaps they get the work done in the time available - working smart not working hard.

If this was the case I wouldn't be finishing their work for them.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 19:25

So, you suffer inconvenience because your employers tend to employ a lot of parents but don't have working practices appropriate to their workforce? That's the issue you need to focus on getting addressed, for everyone's benefit.

I don't disagree with this, but it's an aspect which is rarely touched upon.

Somebody has to bear the impact of having children, and if it's not the parents then who is it? If it's the employer then this explains why so many employers (rightly or wrongly) discriminate against women of child bearing age.

This is something that the above video touches upon, that many women arguably choose careers which accomodate motherhood (which us men obviously have the luxury of not doing for the most part).

All being equal I'd like to see women able to experience the best of both worlds, but I'm currently at a loss as to how one can give full commitment to two conflicting things.

One thing's for sure, all of my female colleagues embraced motherhood and I can't see any of them wanting to have rushed back to work and left the baby with the husband, despite always hearing about how paternity leave should also be prioritised rather than left to the woman.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 19:24

A company which relies on people doing overtime probably needs to hire more staff. Working longer hours routinely except for short periods (eg end of year in some sectors, the fortnight before code freeze in a software project has been show to be counterproductive.

AssassinatedBeauty · 02/12/2018 19:23

Do you ever mention this in your performance reviews? What would happen if you said no you couldn't stay to do overtime due to personal commitments?

JohnMcCainsDeathStare · 02/12/2018 19:17

Perhaps they get the work done in the time available - working smart not working hard. I know that if I'm at work > 9 hours per day my productivity dips and risks of mistakes increases. Bums on seats does not equate to productivity.

And this is coming from someone who's autistic hyperfocus has lead to one burnout this year and I'm taking this weekend of fully to prevent another.

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 19:15

I apologise if I come across as sounding bitter, I'm really not like that in person.

It's just that my personal experience is working with a team of primarily women who all get paid the same salary as me but never do a minute if overtime - and the statistics bear this out too (what was it....40% more overtime worked by men in the UK?).

But you can bet my colleagues all want an equal share of the commission when the bonus comes around...

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 19:12

It's been like this at most companies I've worked at

So, you suffer inconvenience because your employers tend to employ a lot of parents but don't have working practices appropriate to their workforce? That's the issue you need to focus on getting addressed, for everyone's benefit.

AssassinatedBeauty · 02/12/2018 19:09

Oh give over. If you're going to make statements like that you need to be able to back them up with something better than a video that you expect people to watch and pick out your evidence. If you can't be bothered then I certainly won't be.

"No, it doesn't and that's a quirk of nature, not the fault of men." - if only you could just think this through one more step you might actually have a moment of realisation. It is also not the fault of women, who should not be penalised and forced to bear the whole cost to society of having children.

Elfinablender · 02/12/2018 19:09

You seem to be a little off track here. One minute you want to know why men may want to support feminism and the next you want to know why feminism isn't doing a good enough job at addressing your particular complaints.

You could, y'know, actually do something to support men in crisis, and maybe you do and if so, it would be interesting to hear about, but you want to keep it hypothetical.

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 19:05

Is that based in fact or just your belief?

I can't be arsed to scour the internet for the original link but I believe it's covered in the below debate.

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Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 19:02

Forgo having a child, one of life's great experiences. That never ever applies to men, does it?

No, it doesn't and that's a quirk of nature, not the fault of men.

Having children is a choice, not a right. I've no desire to have children and we live in a hugely overpopulated world anyhow.

In fact, one of my main frustrations of working in a team of primarily women is always being the one who's expected to stay late and finish proposals whilst my colleagues leave early to pick up their kids. I chose not to have kids as I value my freedom, so it especially frustrates me when I'm put out due to other people's choices.

It's been like this at most companies I've worked at and the attitude of entitlement annoys the piss out of me.

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 02/12/2018 19:01

Is that based in fact or just your belief?

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 18:53

No, because women who don't have children still fall behind.

Not in the demographic we were discussing which is professional career-focused women.

If you're comparing nursery workers to stockbrokers then maybe, but as above I think many men focus on lucrative careers because they're expected to be the higher earner.

OP posts:
Cuppaqueen · 02/12/2018 18:47

@ScottCheggJnr

Isn't that the most egregious example of inequality you can think of? That to succeed in the workplace after their 20s/30s women have to 'forgo motherhood'!!! Forgo having a child, one of life's great experiences. That never ever applies to men, does it?

(I'll admit you've touched a nerve there. I have a child and I am struggling to get back into the workplace despite lots of experience. I have a gap in my CV, I'm the wrong age. But my husband - do employers ever think twice about whether he has a family? No! I was constantly asked if I'd feel guilty going back to work. Was he? Never. )

It is indeed about long term career earnings - but also on a less financial level, it is about the mental health and happiness of women like me who are being shoved out of the workplace or into jobs they are massively overqualified for just because they are part-time or flexible.

As for businesses making a choice not to employ women - that is 100% sex discrimination. And it's what we need to fight against. I do think the Government could do more here to help small businesses with maternity costs and to legislate so that all employers must accept flexible working requests for 1-2 years after maternity (for men and women) unless exceptional circumstances. If it's a level playing field there will be less opportunity or 'excuse' for this kind of discrimination.

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 18:45

As has been pointed out, most of the grunt work in social care is being done by women anyway.

But one thing that is rarely acknowledged on here is that men are judged by their income to a much greater extent than are women. Similarly, women seemingly place a much greater importance on finding a financially secure partner.

I think it's logical that this influences men in choosing careers which offer the greatest likelihood of high earnings - i.e. STEM subjects rather than say Humanities. I think it's also likely why so many men commit suicide in middle age when they realise they've 'failed' in their aspirations.

I don't see how this will change anytime soon as the posters on this board don't represent the majority of women I encounter in society (even if most women profess to be feminists of a sort).

Whilst powerful, rich men are the ones who are considered the most eligible, toxic masculinity will prevail.

OP posts:
GraceTheDisgrace · 02/12/2018 18:37

I can see why small business owners pick the candidate who is less likely to disappear from the business and leave them to shoulder the additional costs of hiring a replacement whilst paying maternity pay. Most businesses ultimately care about the bottom line, and it's not just men making these choices

I'm a small business owner and I employ single mums. I'm not in the UK, so I work under a different set of rules wrt maternity pay and so forth, so I don't want to comment directly on that (it may be more or less here, I simply don't know), but just speaking as an employer -- women with serious life responsibilities make fantastic employees. In my experience, they are motivated, hard-working, have a stake in their community, and are keen to support their families.

I think lazy stereotypes are more likely to be harmful here than the horror of a working mother.

AssassinatedBeauty · 02/12/2018 18:37

No, because women who don't have children still fall behind.

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 18:31

That's because it is women who are unequal - who get paid less, who get penalised for having children

Women actually outearn men up until around the age of motherhood, and studies have found that they're promoted more aggressively than their male peers if they stay in the workplace and forego motherhood.

This considered, think there's a good argument that it's the time taken out from one's career which contributes most to the difference in earnings - missed promotion opportunities/experience etc.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but harsh as it sounds I can see why small business owners pick the candidate who is less likely to disappear from the business and leave them to shoulder the additional costs of hiring a replacement whilst paying maternity pay. Most businesses ultimately care about the bottom line, and it's not just men making these choices - there are plenty of unsympathetic women in the Sophia Amoruso vein.

OP posts:
IfNotNowBernard · 02/12/2018 18:29

The problem I've seen with men's issues like "men's suicide rate" is that the vast majority of men simply cannot be arsed to do anything to help each other out.
Well this really. As has been pointed out, most of the grunt work in social care is being done by women anyway. It's not that women don't care about the male suicide rate, it's that we have quite a lot on our plate already!
And I don't bring my son up to think men are deadbeat dads. His father does that for me, sadly.
What you want OP is a get-out. A reason not to feel bad about the shit piled on women. Sorry I can't accommodate.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 18:29

Is this just the difference between 'support' and 'actively engage in' ?

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2018 18:24

feminist and misogynist are not opposites.

Cuppaqueen · 02/12/2018 18:24

@ErrolTheDragon Fair point - I agree

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 18:18

Some interesting replies.

Just to be clear, I meant it as a hypothetical question. I do support equality like most men I've met, but I was interested to hear people's thoughts.

I do see a lot of statements like "if you don't support feminism, you're a misogynist" but never the reverse, hence the question.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 18:14

This may have already have been said, but there are issues where women's and men's rights intersect. For instance...
'Every time you don't challenge or question inequality, whether it's pay levels, or women at senior levels being denied the right to work flexible hours' ...well, yes; but also we should challenge if a man (at any level) is denied flexible working hours if he, like the woman, needs them to care for his children or his elderly parents. 'We' being both feminists and men supporting men's rights.

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