DD made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies

You need to show real danger. Real threat.

I disagree. If some people are arguing that women should give up female only spaces, it's up to them to prove that they are not necessary and that mixed sex is best for everyone.

OldCrone - exactly. If you're in the ladies and you need to momentarily adjust something up your skirt or in your bra, you're okay to do it in front of the sink and not in a cubicle. Women don't notice and don't care. Ain't no way you would dream of doing stuff like that at a mirror in the loos in front of a man - transwoman or not. That's not how women operate.

@interestingdebatetoday

Or we can focus the debate on "if you allow this, then you are also allowing them to come into our changing rooms where we will be standing naked. We cant easily run outside if they attack because we will be naked, they won't need to fight to get our clothes off because we will be naked" etc. You need to show real danger. Real threat.

Men coming and going from a toilet where we are fully dressed and have individual lockable doors are not a threat which lawmakers will actually consider real. They may be, but it's not got a big enough impact to get attention. A lot of people, like me, really wouldn't care and wouldn't feel uncomfortable. It just get eye rolls and a response of "lock the door to your cubicle".

You can only stop it by highlighting the domino affect on all our other spaces.

In her mind, it's a room with 2 guys in it. So? She wasn't changing infront of them?

When I used the toilets at work as a changing room I would use the communal part rather than a cubicle - it gave me more space and if someone else came in and wanted to use the toilet they wouldn't have to wait for me. I felt comfortable doing that because I knew it would only be another woman if someone walked in while I was changing.

Women have never been listened to simply because they've been uncomfortable as women, in fact there is a current thread about precisely that!

But they should be

And giving up and saying well we aren't ever going to be listened to doesn't help us as much as saying fucking well listen to us simply because we speak

Arguing that it can't happen because it makes you feel uncomfortable won't work... since when have women been listened to simply because they were uncomfortable?

That's (sadly) true.

I am not optimistic about complaining to the uni, or the group, or really, anywhere.

Still, she has every right to feel uncomfortable, and I think it is important to let her know she's not alone.

I'd fight this from the perspective that it will lead to all women's spaces going... including those where privacy cannot be had by going into a cubicle because they are just single rooms. But I wouldn't argue against it by saying it "makes me uncomfortable" because the answer will always be "you have your own individual cubicle with a lockable door".

A man can rape a woman in any place he is alone with her. For that to be valid, you'd need to argue that they can never be alone with a woman in any space.

The actual problem is them being in spaces where we are changing, or naked, or sleeping etc and where we don't have a lockable door between us. Those are the places where we are actually at a very real risk of being in danger.
Allowing them into bathrooms opens the door to them coming into those spaces. And thats why it can't happen. Arguing that it can't happen because it makes you feel uncomfortable won't work... since when have women been listened to simply because they were uncomfortable?

What's 'dressed as a man'? I'm probably dressed as a man right now.

You know what Hairy means.

This person obviously has no qualms about enjoying "their" male privilege while out and about, and does not at all feel uncomfortable being perceived as a man. Which means "they" could easily use the men's facilities without being uncomfortable or in danger there.

This person just chooses to make a 20 year old woman uncomfortable because "they" can.

But why does it matter what they were wearing? As many argue on here, clothes/ appearance don't make you make or female. Just seems a weird thing to focus on.

A cubicle only really fits easily one person

If a man wants to rape you I think he's fairly likely to decide behind the closed door by the sinks is good enough

And while neither of them wanted to rape her or assault her

A young woman still has an inner alert that it is possible. There are no cameras. You won't necessarily be saved by another woman walking in

In her mind, it's a room with 2 guys in it. So? She wasn't changing infront of them?

Her feelings are valid, and mean something to her. But she wasn't changing infront of them.

I mean more to the side of saving women's spades than I do to the trans movement, but with arguments like this I just think "So?". You've got individual, lockable cubicles.

The only reason i'd fight it is that it opens the door to allowing them into changing rooms, nude spas, sleeping in the same room as female during club/school outings. It opens a door to the things which are actually a problem. But in itself, it's really not that bad.

I use the disabled toilets or at least single person toilets rather than communal bathrooms. I have nothing against trans people or their rights to be in those spaces if they are genuinely identifying as that gender, but I am not comfortable changing in their presence so I remove myself as much as I can. I've been sexually assaulted several times from the age of 8 and I can't put myself into a situation that leaves me vulnerable in that way.

Who does it work fine for?? I used to work in a 'small independent shop' with a colleague who used the loo for 30 mins on the dot every day at 3pm. If I had to go in there after him to use the toilet, it was absolutely vile. So you say 'everyone', I say 'not me'. As do many other MNers who we are seeing on this site adding daily to the experience of using public gender neutral toilets, and how it doesn't work "fine" for them.
Just because you're okay with it, does not mean everybody else is. Sex segregation exists for a reason. And yes, womens loos can be grim sometimes, but nowhere close to the state the mens is most of the time (according to my husband).
And you are kidding yourself if you think you can say to the transwoman that it's fine for them to use the ladies loos but not fine for them to use the ladies changing room because you may be naked in there. We both know that's not how it works.

And if you are, then you'd be in a locked cubicle. Where the 2 people pushing into the cubicle with her?

A changing room is often one big room. A bathroom has multiple, lockable cubicles.

What's 'dressed as a man'? I'm probably dressed as a man right now.

Holstenlane
Changing rooms, places where you are genuinely vulnerable or getting naked... that's entirely different.

Did you not read the OP?

She needed to get changed at an event and went into the ladies

We sometimes use the toilets as a changing room.

I just can't get worked up about a man being in a bathroom wirh cubicles with floor to ceiling walls/door; and maybe not even too bothered about that. A bathroom really isn't a social place, and changing Sanpro isn't an embarrassing thing. I get other people will be embarrassed, or want to hang around in a toilet having girly chat but it's a place most of us are in and out of as quickly as possibly.

Changing rooms, places where you are genuinely vulnerable or getting naked... that's entirely different. But I'm never going to be bothered about individual unisex cublices with sinks or the odd 'man' coming in to pee.

But it's also a space we congregate in - we escape to it to talk to other women away from male ears

That's exactly why males want to invade it.

Unfortunately dd seems to think that everyone is absolutely fine about welcoming this person into female spaces.

There'll be others who disagree, perhaps not in that group, but certainly at the uni.

It is just hard to find other feminists.
I try to tell myself that I wanted to be a spy or secret agent when I was a kid, and now I get what I wanted ...

@Musthavesbackagain

When did they start putting all male cleaning through a criminal record check? And a psych profile to ensure they have no fetishes? ... I'm pretty sure they don't. But men still get to clean the women's toilets.

A whole load of small, independent shops have a single unused toilet and have has for years. It works fine.

I'm sorry, my above post was not for Spotty, it was for Holstenlane.