DD made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies

The Man Friday activists made the men uncomfortable when they went into their changing rooms, but we still haven't won this one.

Agree, but that was fairly small scale. And they achieved a lot. They got the issue into the public eye in a big way. They got misogynistic Stonewall penned guidance binned.

This is a war. Ongoing.

@OldCrone

Which would have worked a few years ago. But they have very successfully made it "wrong" to question or not go along with them. Politicians and businesses are falling over themselves to support the trans community. It now seems very much like what they say is met with nodding and yes man responses. That's what you're fighting.

They work a lot better

No. They don't.

Really make THEM uncomfortable. Perhaps then they'll listen.

The Man Friday activists made the men uncomfortable when they went into their changing rooms, but we still haven't won this one.

That's how it normally works when people want to change social and cultural norms.

Yes. Don't pander to this entitled bullshit.

That's a really dishonest way of portraying what the OP was saying. They don't work. People don't give a fuck about women. Don't fucking roll over, call it out. Challenge it. You mentioned it before, our position needs to be consistent. No males in women's spaces. It undermines everything.

They are being given our spaces. So if we don't start campaigning on the dangers then our spaces will be gone.

But an argument which forces them to prove that mixed sex is better is a stronger one. They want to change how things are. So they have to prove that they are making an improvement on the current arrangements. That's how it normally works when people want to change social and cultural norms.

@Ereshkigal

They work a lot better than someone saying "I feel uncomfortable when I see 2 transwomen standing in a bathroom where I was fully clothes and could go into a cubicle and lock a door". That argument just doesn't really have much impact.

Really make THEM uncomfortable. Perhaps then they'll listen.

I agree.

I increasingly suspect that arguments won't help any, at all.

We need to protest in the streets. To just walk into men's toilets and changing rooms when there's men in the women's.

Really make THEM uncomfortable. Perhaps then they'll listen.

Holsten

IT DOESN'T WORK.

Don't you think these arguments have been made?

@OldCrone

But they are being taken away from us. Women's spaces are going. So do you want to carry on saying "well, I don't need to prove the dangers, they need to prove we don't need it". Because they don't need too... They are being given our spaces. So if we don't start campaigning on the dangers then our spaces will be gone.

Morally, I agree. Why should we need too? They should. We should be listened to simply when we say we don't want it. But that's not what is happening. And it's nothing suddenly going to happen. So be morally right, and lose your spaces. Or fight using points you don't think should HAVE to be highlighted.

Why do we have to prove anything? It's up to those who want to make changes to show that we would not be harmed by those changes.

This. Bullshit do we have to prove that one group of male people are safer to be around than other males. Do better. Be stronger. Speak up.

I am also a bit suspicious of university 'hangers-on'.

Particularly if they're 'transwomen' who sometimes present as male and want to volunteer with the Brownies.

Or what if we bring a few big, burly men in with us and they stare down the intruders?

That works only as a spontaneous action, but I'd totally ask a male friend to accompany me to the ladies' if the only other people there were males.

He could always claim to be genderfluid and feel very feminine today.

Use their own bullshit against them.

The males who want to invade women's spaces won't care if other males join them, but the student body at large might start to see the light once the toilets become effectively unisex and everyone claims to have a special gender identity.

Oh, something just occurred to me.

@HairyPotter: Tell your daughter that if that happens again, she can just use the men's toilet.

If there's next to no one there, the men's toilet is probably empty. If there's men there, it is men who didn't intentionally violate women's boundaries before, so they're safer to be around than those in the ladies'. (And if they complain about her presence, she can just claim a case of sudden onset gender dysphoria. "I just can't identify with those people in the ladies', I'm not like them!")

Whether you like it or not, people only take action when you show them the danger, the real danger and then the possibility of them being sued if they allow it to happen to you.

Arguably the EA might allow them to be sued for denying women privacy and dignity. Workplace toilet stipulations are quite strict. I think that's what we need to move towards, not telling women their feelings don't matter, but men's do. Our bar should be higher than simply not being raped. You know they will come at you with whataboutery. I actually think the privacy and dignity argument is potentially stronger.

Make men/policy makers/industry leaders etc listen to women is another argument. And one we won't win quickly. I'd rather we win the women's spaces thing quickly. So if that means focussing on the danger they put us in if they open the door by allowing them in toilets, then that's what I'd do. But you need to focus on the bit picture... not just men being aĺlowed in the bathroom (where options to harm are limited) but on what it means... that they can then come in other spaces where chances to harm are great.

You need to show actual danger.

Why? Up until recently nobody has ever suggested that female only spaces could be removed unless we could show that doing so would put us in danger. So what's changed? Why do we have to prove anything? It's up to those who want to make changes to show that we would not be harmed by those changes.

@Musthavesbackagain

It's not my answer. It's the answer you will get from policy makers and all the rest of them when you say "but I feel uncomfortable". And saying "men won't shut the door".... that's not going to change anyone's minds. The answer will be "they will when all toilets are for everyone".

Whether you like it or not, people only take action when you show them the danger, the real danger and then the possibility of them being sued if they allow it to happen to you. And those dangers just aren't prevalent in a bathroom. They will be in changing rooms or dormitories. So use those to argue for women's spaces.

Sorry @Holstenlane but I am done with using trauma that they don't fucking care about anyway to try and justify why I should be listened to as a woman to anyone

I am a woman. I feel uncomfortable. End of.

Sorry if this doesn't help win arguments fast. But we aren't listened to even when we are forced to divulge why we feel uncomfortable. So from me, nope.

Just because I'm a woman is enough now

I am not sure it is a good idea to focus only on the "real danger".

We have to put our foot down and get males to respect our feelings, too.

If we justify and justify and are all "Well, okay, I am willing to sacrifice my privacy and safety for what males want, but please, pretty please don't put me in a situation where I will be raped with 100% certainty (prison with male rapists)" then we might be weakening our position.

I know males and their handmaidens don't want to listen. But we can organise protests and force them to listen.

Hoping that they will have mercy on us if the danger is just grave enough ... I am not sure it is the right way to go.

I keep wracking my brains to figure out a way to deal with this, as these situations occur, in the moment.
What if they were confronted by several women stating clearly that they are uncomfortable, and please leave. I know, I know..some of them just want the attention. But maybe most have honestly not considered how they are affecting us?
Or what if we bring a few big, burly men in with us and they stare down the intruders? (Esp in locker rooms) Or teams of fearless women to "monitor" the space. I know, not feasible. Any other creative ideas?
They need to feel more discomfort. It would help to have a ready comment to take them off guard because I think we are taken off guard and can't think in the moment.

@Musthavesbackagain

And the answer will always be "then go into a cubicle and lock the door".

Those arguments will not work. You need to show actual danger. It's crap, but the shocking things are the only things which get noticed or listened too.

I am also a bit suspicious of university 'hangers-on'.

Holsten, when are you going to get it? Fellas don't shut the 'lockable cubicle door' that you keep going on about. They just pee with it open. And then, we all have to see and hear it when we come in to use the toilet with our young daughters.
It's great you're so right on. How about we all get Holsten a big cake and a glass of champagne to celebrate how right are they on?
But when are you going to get it? Women don't want to share their toilets with men, regardless of how they present.