DD made to feel uncomfortable in the ladies

These threads are fucking batshit. Doesn't matter what I say, if I ask if someone's ok with me atting, you get "wah, TRA, tactics."
At people anyway, "wah, TRA, tactics.'
It isn't a problem for a lot of people which is why I asked if it was then I wouldn't. (Which I do know as a thread on here not so long ago had people baffled as they didn't even know it was a "thing" and said no problem with it.)
Which is why I asked.
Although this is probably going to get "wah, disigenous" and accused of being this Debbie person's bessie mate or in league or something.

OP I think ideally your DD would make a written complaint. And ideally a lot more students would do so.
Otherwise the University would use the old "well no-one complains" response.

And I bet those two Trans women don't even get why a much younger female would be intimidated and feel uncomfortable with them there. Because of their early socialisation.

Really don't like it that should say, not really don't

But I DIDN'T say that, in fact I said the exact opposite that I wouldn't at if somebody didn't like it as I've seen people say they really don't!
Somebody called Debbie said the opposite to me so you automatically conflate the two as aha, tactics?!
Just... oookay.

because it's exactly what Debbie Hayton has her arse handed to Debbie about - 'I'm happy to leave the ladies if you ask me to in person but I'm going to carry on using them even though I know loads of you don't like it (to say the least)'.

It's exactly that, and you know it. Being disingenuous - another TRA tactic.

I thought you said you were hiding FWR?

Rivertam lots of people DON'T have a problem with it either, how do you jump from me saying of course I won't if it's not wanted to "wahhh, TRA?!" fgs.

interesting your comment about @ing someone, Verbeena - you know that a lot of people don't like it on MN but you're only going to stop doing it if someone asks you to.

Very typical TRA tactics.

Who on earth does a pregnancy test in a public toilet and then congregates in there to discuss it with other random women using the loo? Other than when in a nightclub or bar where people have been drinking, women don’t strike up girlie bonding conversations with strangers in the toilet. Many many places have just one or two lockable cubicles with sinks that open up in public spaces- eg coffee shops and cafes. They are not unsafe and women and children manage fine.

I agree with the pp who said that we should focus on places where there is a real danger like changing rooms. The notion that going to the toilet is a female bonding experience that we must preserve is a stereotype.

I use the men’s loos at the theatre etc all the time
Head down. scurry in to a cubicle and have a much needed piss.
I’m a adult human female and very much present as one so it must be a bit disconcerting for the AHMs at the urinal but you know, live and let live.
I’ve had four DC. Sometimes it’s a choice between ducking into the men’s or the unthinkable.

Trans people, men in charge of small children, post childbirth or pregnant women, faced with a long queue, elderly people, helpers of a different sex to their charges etc. There are many reasons the ‘wrong’ people may need to use a lavatory.
Lockable cubicles should assuage most fears.

Women are nothing more or less than adult human females though. We have suffered horrific historical persecution. Due to our biology. I agree gender is an oppressive construct (that should not be addressed with medication or surgery)
Sex is a biological fact that has a protected status for a bloody good reason.

Loos though? Let’s pick our fucking battles.

I say No.

You may not understand the "row about toilets" but that is your problem.

As a woman, I say No to men in women's spaces.

That's a No.

I’ve never been into a female UK loo without closed cubicles.
I’m perfect happy with men, women and trans people using the same closed cubicle lavatories. I wouldn’t be so happy with communal changing rooms.

We need to be careful that the discussion doesn’t tip over into hyperbole. The focus needs to be on the the real threats to the erasure of biological womanhood as a protected status.
Not bogged down in a row about loos!

Although it did come across that if transwomen are in the ladies then don't assume that they've done nothing wrong. Even if they could be completely minding their own business, assume wrongdoing.

I was responding to the information given about this individual. The OP said this about the transwoman in question:

For full disclosure, the trans woman in question attended an event a couple of months ago (where they probably were not expecting to see anyone they knew) but was dressed as a man.

This person appears to be a man who sometimes 'identifies as a woman', and sometimes does not. I believe that such a person is 'doing something wrong' simply by using the women's toilets. This person presumably uses the men's when dressed in his suit and tie, so why not do the same when wearing a dress and a wig? The clothes don't make him change sex.

If transwomen are women and they have female "souls" or "essences", then why can they not understand that women do not want their male bodies in women's single-sex spaces?

Anybody would think they are clueless.

As for the 'taking a photo' comment, I disagree with that

Fair enough then if so, apologies . Although it did come across that if transwomen are in the ladies then don't assume that they've done nothing wrong. Even if they could be completely minding their own business, assume wrongdoing. Fair enough if that's not what you meant.

Good sidestepping of the point there

I wasn't sidestepping anything. I was replying to the assertion made by another poster that this individual 'hasn't done anything wrong'. I stand by my response to that.

As for the 'taking a photo' comment, I disagree with that. And it seems so does MNHQ, since they have deleted the original comment.

Haven't they? If one day they're in the ladies' and insisting they have a right to be there as a transwoman, and the next they're wearing a man's suit and tie (and no wig) - are you sure they've done nothing wrong?

Good sidestepping of the point there - which was this

If it happens again, take photo in a way one can tell it is recent (calendar in the background?) and anonymously spread it on the internet and in print at the uni.

How on earth can your head say that's acceptable? The thread would scream and shout in outrage if TRA's did that.
Why is it alright for radical feminists to do the exact same behaviour?
It really isn't OK whoever it's coming from!

What the hell? That is harassment of an individual who hasn't done anything wrong. Really don't see how this differs to TRA intimidation tactics. Can we just remember that we are talking about a person here.
(Am just as GC as anyone else - but this kind of thinking just seems totally removed from any sort of critical empathy.

Exactly, @velourvoyageur! (sorry if you don't like being atted, I know some don't like people doing it even if it's just the once, won't do again if you don't)
It is the EXACT same behaviour whichever side it comes from, unbelievable that some cant' see that!

There isn't any valid reason for men to be using women's toilets, regardless of how they identify. If it's 'because the men's toilets are unsafe' then address the transphobia of men. If it's because it 'validates their identity as a woman', they don't have the right to enlist women without their consent in their fantasy. If it's because the women's toilets are cleaner/nicer, then men's toilet facilities need to be improved.

YY, exactly.

I don't know if that makes any sense but it's like they've got you trapped in some kind of power play and whatever you do is wrong.

It makes perfect sense. This is all about power.

I was thinking about this thread and thinking why transwomen in the loos would be upsetting and intimidating (as well as the male bodied person in female space thing which I think is valid in itself)... but I think, for me, there is also the thought that if that person behaved inappropriately how difficult it would be to report that behaviour and how likely it would be that your speaking out would have you shouted down as a 'transphobic bigot' rather than taken seriously. I mean if a natal woman was behaving inappropriately in the ladies you could do or say something. If a man, just a man man, was in the ladies you could challenge or leave or report depending on the situation/level of threat and, say you choose just to walk out, that wouldn't be a problem. No one would get cross that you weren't being inclusive or whatever. But a transwoman? What can you do? Suck up your discomfort and get on with it? Because even if you choose to leave you risk being shouted at for being transphobic. And if you stay you have zero power in the situation if they do anything inappropriate... and that's a mental load for the whole time you're in there. Not peaceful. No pissing in peace for women.

I don't know if that makes any sense but it's like they've got you trapped in some kind of power play and whatever you do is wrong.

Yes, and a male toilet attendant doesn't expect or require the women using the facilities to pretend that he's not a man.

Part of feeling unsafe, is not being able to say what's actually going on ie that there are two men in the women's toilets.

There isn't any valid reason for men to be using women's toilets, regardless of how they identify. If it's 'because the men's toilets are unsafe' then address the transphobia of men. If it's because it 'validates their identity as a woman', they don't have the right to enlist women without their consent in their fantasy. If it's because the women's toilets are cleaner/nicer, then men's toilet facilities need to be improved.

A male who is employed and paid to clean the loos is there to clean the loos.

We know he has a reason to be there.

What possible reason does any other male have to be in a female loo?

@HairyPotter

Can she create an anonymous throwaway email account and email her concerns to the university? She could maybe emailing operations and suggest female/ male/ gender neutral toilets?

I actually think toilets are a valuable point. Because everyone uses them. Not everyone uses spas or gyms, and they can be avoided I suppose (notcthat we should have to) but safe toilets are VITAL for women to be able to exist in the public sphere.

There’s always a male cleaner warning sign and the dynamic is different - this is a known employee doing s time limited, specific job, with a sign up saying they’re in there. The power dynamic is still with the customer - if that man makes a customer uncomfortable the customer / employee balance of power is such that the customer wouldn’t feel intimidated reporting and the cleaner presumably wants to keep their job and is there in a professional capacity.

Loos are important- reminds me of that spitting image song ‘everybody goes to the toilet...’

Old, the 48% is from freedom of information request on the bbc news site, I’m rubbish at hyper linking but it’s dated 13.8.18 from a BBC reality check team (seems odd writing bbc and reality check in the same sentence 😂).