I'm so bloody fed up with this

JADE- justify apologise defend and explain

That really resonates with me, very much

Thank you. It clarifies stuff.

Bowl Thank you for JADE. It's good to have a name for what I do and what's expected of me.

Sometimes I want to be a two year old again, asking "Why why why" to burrow deep behind every assertion that women should give in to demands, every assertion that the people demanding are being reasonable, every defence of the assertion.

A male assertion is a statement of fact. A female assertion is bigotry.

Regarding the JADE, perhaps we should do something like training camps where we spend all day roleplaying situations and learning to break the habit.

Or just something for breaking out of female socialisation.

Lots of women try to overcome their internalized misogyny individually, has anyone tried to do it in groups?

Second wave feminism, probably. I always get jealous when I hear what women got up to back then.

I do the JADE, I know why just haven’t learnt how break the habit.

Maybe ban certain words that feel like commands ie nice

ofcourseibloodyncd - I've felt pretty shaken up since I read your first couple of posts earlier today. Because that's it, isn't it? Men speak and what they say is accepted. Women have to provide proof/evidence/justification. Or, even better, corroboration by a male or similar authority figure.

Every so often when reading this bit of Mumsnet, I get some clarity. And then along comes another thread, namely yours, and another realisation dawns. That's been my life experience. But it's not actually my fault for not being assertive enough, it's the socialisation that demeans my voice because of my biology.

The thing with JADE is that as soon as you start to defend something, it makes you feel guilty, even though you have done nothing wrong. And sexual violence already is surrounded by so many feelings of shame and guilt (which come from all the myths which surround it).

And now I get stuck because the only way I can continue what I want to say is to refer to what happened to me. But why should I do that? You know, knowing my abuser, he would get off on the details and how it affected me. Of course he would, otherwise - guess what? - he would not have done it. So whose fantasies are the stories of survivors feeding when they have to recount them to validate their desire for safe space? And - as the OP says - why are they even fodder in this debate/war on women’s same sex spaces.

No should mean no. It is the basis of consent. No explanation, justification or defence. Just no. Every time I tell my story, I give something more of me away. Sometimes that can be empowering, but not if it is in response to someone else not accepting no. Then it is just more of the same.

This whole "I only take your desire to be safe from men seriously if you were raped" thing is a very clever method to make sure that men as a group get at least one rape per woman.

I also suspect that in most cases, when simply being a woman isn't enough for them to listen to you, then being a victim also doesn't help.

I recently tried to explain to some people why "someone" (me, but I didn't want to talk about it) might be uncomfortable around transpeople and used the video of transactivists beating up a woman in Hyde Park to show them what I meant. (Because I knew already that murder threats would be argued away with "oh, they're just upset, the poor little dears, they don't mean it")

They went all "Oh, that's just some nasty people, that they're using the word "trans" is total coincidence".

I didn't talk about my own experiences. (Which was just internet murder threats by transpeople who know where I live, so I knew it would not be taken seriously)

Just left.

It wasn't a space that was important to me, so not worth the risk of being explained, in detail, why what happened to me wasn't traumatic enough to justify me being uncomfortable.

Its the same thing women do all the time - JADE- justify apologise defend and explain. It’s socialised I to us that we are not entitled to say no. Maybe, just maybe, if we have a good enough reason. But it has to be good, and you have to be contrite.

So a woman has to give a reason why she's not Ok with changing next to men. And on the bf/ff threads she has to preface ‘I bottle fed’ with ‘I really wanted to but...’

When what she should be able to say is, quite simply, no

All of this boils down to women not being listened to when we say NO.

🤷🏻‍♀️
But you really are not saying anything controversial.

I found out the hard way and was banned there a few years ago, went looking around and found article describing how this MRA guy took control of the sub.

/r/feminisms is still a feminist sub and /r/gendercritical is the most active feminist sub, although of course it has more narrow focus.

The head mod of /r/feminism is a men rights activist. He took control some years back and has been gleefully banning feminists ever since.

Much of this is rooted in women not being regarded as full, actual human beings in the same way men are.

I know this is a basic tenant of feminism but it's only recently that I think I've truly appreciated what it means and what the implications are for women.

I agree, it's rage inducing.

Hear hear!

I hadn't come across the expression "raped enough to ride" but it sums it up. Ugh. (Plus, why do I feel some people get a prurient thrill from forcing out the details? /slight derail)

No should be enough. No is a complete sentence. No. Just No.

I hear you, OP.

We don't need to have suffered to earn even a modicum of respect or attention. We exist. We have rights. And those of us who have suffered shouldn't be required to self-flagellate before having those rights recognised either.

I totally agree. When something happens we are the ones who are judged on our behaviour and castigated for not keeping ourselves safe; when something hasn't happened yet we are judged on our behaviour for trying to stay safe.

Also, people who force you to disclose your victim status are abusive.

Yes I hear you OP. It's this insistence on, as one of my friends put it , having to show your "raped enough to ride" ticket before anyone listens to you.

I am one of the very fortunate women who hasn't been raped or seriously sexually assaulted - guess what... I still think self ID is a terrible idea. I don't want to come out of the shower in my gym wrapped only in a towel and be confronted by a penis. And my opinion on this should count for as much as the penis owner's, regardless of how he identifies. In fact my opinion should count for more, because in sexual situations, no trumps yes (just as a man's no would trump my yes if I tried to take my vulva into the men's changing room).

I entirely agree.
It is an experience I had in my marriage which was coercive control and abuse. It was like I felt if I just explained a little bit more, he would understand and change his behaviour. I explained and explained and then as things went through court, got experts to explain and explain, and you know what? He still wants more and more explanation. So the only answer is no, no explanations any more, just clear boundaries. I still had to explain to other people why those boundaries are there.

Explaining - particularly when you are traumatised and vulnerable - puts you on the defensive, it makes you doubt and question yourself, and it simply gives the perpetrator more leeway to pick up on what you are saying and question it more.

No should be enough.

It makes me uncomfortable on threads on here when women feel they need to share distressing experiences to validate their views. However, I know I did it a lot a couple of years ago because I was not able to talk about it in real life, I had not found the words.

I agree that it is somehow perpetuating the abuse to only take a woman seriously if she discloses it (or worse then ignore even that). But it is also dismissive of other women who have a right to bodily autonomy, integrity and privacy anyway - you do not have to have been abused to have an issue with male-bodied people in female bathroom space.

So yes, I agree with you