In defence of deadnaming

I literally said you can't use it generally

You can use it about yourself

The solution to this would have been to not make a list of forbidden words in the first place.

The banning wasn’t driven by the women on these boards. It was externally imposed. Most of us were annoyed at being cissed but didn’t see the need to ban it or posters who used it. It wasn’t the women on the FWR boards who wanted words banned at all.

Fox, if you're using the word 'woman' to refer to adult human females, no prefix is required.

the word 'woman' will do nicely

we'll all understand exactly what you mean. words are good that way

I was using it generally to distinguish from trans women and it got deleted

Fox are you really having difficulty understanding how simple it is? The 'c' word is redundant. If you want to talk about transwomen you can say 'transwomen'. If you want to talk about women, just say 'women'. It really is that simple.

"You just can't use it this way"

"Well that's how I used it though"

Huh?

MN mods aren't known for being incredibly consistent, I'm afraid.

Yes, that's right. You've just been told you're not allowed to use it generally, and you've just told us that's what you did.

Youre allowed to use it about yourself and to discuss it

Just not allowed to use it generally or 'at' another poster

I was using it generally to distinguish from trans women and it got deleted:

"Nobody is suggesting that the word lesbian means you are attracted to men. We're talking about trans women. The point you're missing is that plenty of lesbians who meet your own restrictive definition of the term do however have no problem recognising trans women and [¢!$] women who sleep with them as lesbians."

The solution to this would have been to not make a list of forbidden words in the first place. Rather than to whinge because you didn't mean for anyone to ban your words, only the ones those other bastards use.

But that's the gig, innit? "I say what I like, you say what I like, everyone's happy. Say it. Say 'everyone's happy."

I mean, I couldne give a monkey's what silly words you use and pretend mean anything relating to anything else. But if you insist I can't use certain words that explain who I mean, then I'm not going to sob uncontrollably that you aren't allowed to use use words you like to use either.

I'm for everyone using all the words they like. I have a particular affection for the word man and the accurate usage of. Also, I enjoy a good argument. No time for all this faffing about with rules business, beyond no threats. But it is what it is and, as Rufus says, the censorious reap what the censorious sow. We all have to do our best to be rule-compliant, even if it is boring.

Also: bah. Bloody guests. Why aren't they all gone by Boxing Day night? A good argument on this thread and a full scale rebellion going on over a Certain Video. I'm going to miss all the fun.

Have fun all - within the rules, natch!

Exactly, Rufus. TRAs demanded that certain words be banned, or posts including them deleted, and in response MNHQ banned what they saw as the words that offended both sides. The solution to this would have been to not make a list of forbidden words in the first place. Rather than to whinge because you didn't mean for anyone to ban your words, only the ones those other bastards use.

I must admit to a certain amount of schadenfreude watching Stephen Whittle's fury at having their language policed after having a post deleted for using the word cis.

Its not banned

Youre allowed to use it about yourself and to discuss it

Just not allowed to use it generally or 'at' another poster

I dont think anyone argued on here for banning it

Personally i fully believe you reap what you fucking sow.....call for a ban on some words and its gonna be tit for tat

Christ on a bike Fox. Here's a tip for the future.

if you mean 'men', say 'men'

literally any english speaking person will understand precisely what you mean

On here if I say man you might think I mean TM.

Unlikely, fox. On here, if you say man, we think you mean someone who was born with a penis. However they identify. If you mean a transman, you can say 'transman'. The term c*s is totally unnecessary - there are men, women, transmen and transwomen. It's quite simple.

Embarrassing fact; up until recently I thought "cis" was pronounced "sigh", like cyborg. I quite like being a cy-woman.

I think "cis" is a silly word but wouldn't have argued for banning it. I don't want any words banned, really, but I am not MNHQ so it's not my decision.

And you would say "Natal Men Are Men and by your standards could also be TW". Ergo Non-Trans Men.

For Rat and Fox, below is a paragraph from the post at the top of the FWR board posted by MNHQ about the censoring of certain terms. This was not our doing. Certain people complained about our use of pronouns and terms such as TM, so MNHQ banned them. In order to be fair to both sides, they also banned the use of cs and t**f, which many here find offensive. If you want to complain about this censorship, you should complain to the TRAs who persuaded MNHQ to put it in place. Not us.

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions.

Datun. Seriously. Anywhere else in the world Fox could just say "cis". And you think she should feel ridiculous for pandering to the linguistic demands that GC feminists have made on this site? She goes out of her way to be understood on your terms and you ridicule her?

'The world'.

Oh Rat.

FWR "regulars" frequently disagree with each other

For example, Lass doesn't believe in female socialisation (and I think doesn't call herself a feminist), though most on here do. I don't believe that abortion should be available on demand to term, though most in here do. Italian is a practicing Christian, though most on here are avowed atheists. There are as many different views on 2nd wave feminism as there are posters. But we are respectful to each other and listen to each other's perspectives.

So enough with the "you don't like anyone who disagrees with you all" stuff.

And a man and a transwoman having sex? That's two gay men having sex. The only way to "straightify" the hypothetical examples is to take a transwoman and a transman, as that boils down to a heterosexual couple . HTH

You want to be careful there, I've seen some TRAs object vehemently to the term "natal" on the grounds that they were born as women too, somehow.

Ooh, was it me Eresh? Sounds like the kind of thing I'd say.

It was. Not sure most of FWR wanted it banned though. But I agree with you that fair's fair.

There was an implied contrast with Natal Women lesbians. In either scenario they may be having anal sex with each other.

I was laughing at the idea that XX women don't have anal sex with each other, actually.

The actual question related to two men who identified as women, nobody mentioned two actual women. Looks like you can't visualise two men identifying as women as 'lesbians' either.