Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner writes

Has everyone read her essay about the time she spent working in the bar that was in a men's clothing store aimed at very wealthy men, and run by a total wanker? I think the title was Ice Balls. Definitely worth a read.

Carey often says things I don't agree with. I'd love to sit down with her and talk over those disagreements. Note the lack of threats, attempts to make her stop saying things I don't agree with, etc.

Well, exactly. Also, she is not in the UK with a nationalised health service. So the environment is very different as is the medical culture, in all areas, not just trans-related. First do no harm counts for more here, whether or not that is a good or a bad thing.

And LOL to your other post! Is it like the Narnia street lamp in The Last Battle, do you think?!

But on a meta level, Lang, isn't a refusal to do what you're told and take the thread in the direction some people would really like it to go in actually a derailment? You know, in the land where the gaslights shine brightly (with occasional moments of unexpected dimming)?

Maybe we need to have a clip that just plays the movie's soundtrack ready for occasions when it's needed.

Individual stories are interesting, but can’t be used as scientific evidence.

Carey often says things I don't agree with. I'd love to sit down with her and talk over those disagreements. Note the lack of threats, attempts to make her stop saying things I don't agree with, etc. Female socialization, it definitely has its upsides!

Oh look! A constructive post about the topic of the thread. However did I manage that? Wonders will never fucking cease.

Indeed, Lang. As always the wisdom of Bunbury applies - don't feed the seagulls, though they will of course keep trying to steal your chips anyway. When it's as obvious that someone lacks self-awareness as the quote Laundy pulled out makes it there's really no point engaging.

(Others are of course free to make different decisions.)

From the article:

While informed consent clinics are presented as the vanguard of patient autonomy, to get hormones at one you necessarily walk out with fewer rights than you walked in with.

Clever, subtle, and quite probably brutal in its honesty.

Longstanding patterns of identity diffusion, social skill deficits, struggles with emotion regulation, and obsessive-compulsive tendencies tend to be obvious to the people around us, and hard for the individual to recognize. Ideally this is what the therapy room can be: a place where it’s safe for us to see the ways we cause trouble for ourselves.

Direct challenge to the conversion therapy narrative.

Despite the fallout in my own life from the anti-gatekeeping viewpoint, I agree with Ms. Chu’s defense of the informed consent model. Adults have the right to make decisions the people around them would call bad bets. Access to informed consent care should be defended because of the importance of patient autonomy. At the same time actually getting your care through an informed consent clinic is an awful idea.

Direct challenge to GC feminists and particularly so for those of us who are mothers and members of a parenting community whose instinct is to protect.

If I was a Swede in Sweden from 1960 to 2010 I would actually not be counted as a “regretter” because I never changed my documents. I know right around two hundred detransitioners but I only know one who changed her gender legally and then changed it back. In large part detransitioners opt out of name and gender changes because the process is tedious and expensive.

So y'know, if you're going to splatter the board with wank, at least make it topical wank.

Not a not man;
Fair question;

Dilation, yes, though it is hardly a chore. It fits in at the same level of trouble as things that everyone has to do at some stage, like flossing teeth and so on. Not a medical matter. Some people don't do it anyway. Their choice. If they are not interested in sex, or interested in sex with a man, it is not a priority. Certainly not for me

On your other point; a lot of people with that op and with full GRS do not continue to take hormones after a certain age. I don't , with endo approval. Why take a health risk? The willy does not grow back, nor do the boobs suddenly vanish. Small attempt at humour there.

Wow, this is like a study on how to gaslight.

Post after post, one person tries desperately to put words in other people's mouths and change the 'history narrative' of the thread.

It's really something to witness as a showcase of tactics. I might get my bingo card out again.

On this thread, and others on Mumset and elsewhere, we often see the "derail" word used. It is noticeable that the " derailing" posts are often nearer to the subject matter of the original post than some of the post made by regular " bedded in" posters.

It often seems , here and elsewhere, that "derailing" is a charge laid at ideas and arguments that do not fit in with some people's " desired prevailing culture".

Jus' sayin' :-)

@KayM2 does the inverted penis not need regular dilation indefinitely to prevent closure? And after orchiectomy does the patient not need to take replacement hormones for life?

Fuxxake.

Grr, bold don't work. That was a quote then a comment.

Of course we need to ensure that people aren't going down the wrong path in life. But don't let your own experience damage others.

Holds up a mirror to F4.

Can we please talk about the article and the points Carey actually made and not debase this thread responding to self-promoters and abusive people?

Katarajean, I don't believe I was addressing you.

Feminist no, i didn‘t make it up. The point was, it wasn‘t all that sad, just the shitty, shitty teenage years (my seclusion had the benefit of excellent grades, though, I guess. Funny part is I went through with it at 18, only to realize it didn’t make much of a difference. I had projected a lot of stuff, including that some people are just pricks who will use anything to make others feel bad into this one issue. I do think it took some maturity to realize that and not go down the ‚what Body part do I blame next for my feeling that I don‘t fit in‘ route.)

As for the baby, it did work out, so no regrets there. But knowing how very, very strongly I felt about not wanting kids (even hated playing with baby dolls) I am very, very skeptical that a kid can know.

Of course, you can say, well you would have gotten sterilized even at 20, as an adult, which is true. At some point one must allow people to make their own choices, even if they are consequential mistakes. But not as teens.

I am sorry feminist4 but who are you to say my concern is phoney and not welcome? You have no idea what I do or who crosses my door in my day to day life, or who I support.

You are conflating a sterilised trans person with a rapist, not me. I have not brought rape or bathrooms into it. I am talking about trying to understand gender dysphoria in all its aspects, of which de-transitioning after transition is one. That is the point of the thread.

I have addressed your points about abortion. I could address those about rape, but I need to go to work and it is not relevant. Suffice to say, rape affects transmen too, and there is one thing connecting them to natal women and it is not gender identity. Also natal boys and men suffer sexual abuse too in their own bathroom space. But let’s stick to the point of the thread.

bittermints; you mentioned that much of the surgery will create a need for lifelong aftercare" ; I'm not sure I know what you mean; m to f seems not to in the vast majority of cases. None of the few people I know well enough to discuss such stuff with need lifelong aftercare. And quite a lot ( including me) do not use any HRT either. **

The surgery, though expensive in a hard pressed NHS, is very routine, and cost @ 9 to 10,000 last time I looked, all in. The surgeons are urologists, essentially, and they have got it down to a routine op.

The very high overall costs that are often quoted include psychiatric input, etc etc. Which the govt is suggesting will not be necessary in the future. Though some of us are doing what we can to prevent "self ID" coming in. So my position is conflicted.

Whether such surgery should be available on the NHS , and will be in the future, is another matter.

**It may be different in f to m cases. Not my area.

And yetafuckingain a thread has been derailed by people who don't want attention on words written that challenge them.

How disrespectful to Carey.

Carey's piece is about detransition, it is about radical queer theory and it is about individual autonomy, despite the possible implications of legitimising behaviour that in some, and with hindsight, is actually self-harming.

Carey's piece challenges the views of GC feminists and genderist religionists in equal measure.

I think it is very telling that only the GC feminists on this thread appear to have read and understood the article and are prepared to discuss it in a positive and productive way, with the others clearly having no idea what it actually says and are simply using it as a vehicle either to splatter irrelevant invective to promote themselves and their own "positioning" within the overall debate.

No one want to address the fact that the 1% is not an actual detransition rate, it comes from the clinical records of current gender clinic patients. I.e. pretty much by definition transitioning or still transitioned. Google detransition and 0.99% and the original research poster comes up.

I feel like I need a shower after reading that comment at 8:22:25.

@deepwatersolo my thoughts exactly - but perhaps only the select minority groups can have the attention?