Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner writes

It's glamorous, isn't it. All those hermit saints with a "vocation" to lock themselves up and torture themselves, rather than trying to do good in society. And people would come and admire you for your saintliness, and after you die you could have a shrine containing one of your sacred body parts and people would come and pray to you....the ultimate ego trip.

Exactly this. I think Carey is such a challenging writer for all-comers because she sees this and isn't afraid to explore it. Like I say, I find it challenging myself on a personal level because the conclusions she draws are often quite individualist, where I come at things from a communitarian angle. But I like her so much because she knows she is going to incite conversations like the one we're having here - bad faith and desperate-to-distract contributions aside - and isn't afraid of us having them.

KayM2

I was surprised when I looked at the article again at how complex it was, and how many different things it covered. I think you have to read it very carefully - I've now actually copied it out into a Word document and used bold and highlighting, to tease out the different strands. Which means it could probably have been more clearly written, but I still think it says a lot of interesting things.

You say:

It seems to me ( only a subjective view) that it may have a variety of causes, and strengths, and may be an unchangeable brain condition acquired pre or post natally.

But that's pretty much what she says in the article:

We have every reason to think that, like most human experiences, the etiology of gender dysphoria is complex. Psychodynamic, social, and physiological components probably all play roles in varying capacities for each gender dysphoric person. Since we’re dealing with a large patient population it’s also rational to expect different solutions will work for different patients.

So better to become martyrs than to prioritise their own self-interest. With "authenticity" as the substitute for "purifying the soul" or "attaining salvation", perhaps.

Also the TRA mantras create a false sense of urgency. You must do it now, or it will be too late.

And yes, among a subset of young people coming out as trans basically makes kids who had formerly been viewed by their peers as a bit nerdy and not very interesting sort of mini celebrities, and what lonely disaffected kid wouldn't find that appealing? It's not the one who're already the bright lights of their peer groups who're getting caught in the social contagion, for the most part. This movement is hoovering up vulnerable young people with alarming efficiency.

In this worldview it is more authentic for the transitioning person to prioritize short term, impulsive expressions of identity which expose them to danger than to use their executive functioning to plan and execute a transition in which they keep their job and home

So better to become martyrs than to prioritise their own self-interest. With "authenticity" as the substitute for "purifying the soul" or "attaining salvation", perhaps.

It's glamorous, isn't it. All those hermit saints with a "vocation" to lock themselves up and torture themselves, rather than trying to do good in society. And people would come and admire you for your saintliness, and after you die you could have a shrine containing one of your sacred body parts and people would come and pray to you....the ultimate ego trip.

From two posts above we see again that agreement on anything in this field may be ultimately impossible. Part of that problem may be that we all come from different " world views" and information sources, and don't often see the other views and experiences. Not until we are thoroughly imbued in The Obvious Right Opinion. Like Democrats and republicans in the USA, who get their info base from different sources, we are told.

Opinions on the Trans thing are based on theories and mind sets, aren't they? Not on very much objective evidence. Though the theories are couched in " The Truth Is..." terms.

Over the centuries very clever and thoughtful people have come to have views that now seem unbelievable. In my career I have worked with people who thought that EBD children were as they were " because of the moon", and that autism / homosexuality was caused by bad parenting. And on the latter thing these people could refer to respectable academic and medical " evidence".

I used to sit in meetings where physios almost came to blows over the merits of Bobath v Conductive Education methodologies. Both were right. Or wrong. Neither could prove that they were right. Actually either system, if done well, seemed to have good results.

Talking about the issues this thread is about, and the original article, is to me like "dancing about architecture"... we can refer all we want
to supposed evidence, and to such as psychiatric practice, and / or
feminist theory ,to underpin our views. But ...as I feel was seen in the original piece, we are often dealing with imprecise, unprovable assertions and understandings, and trying to understand something that is just not understood, using every bit of the " dancing about architecture" methods that are all we have.

Again, I thought that the original article was elegantly written but did not throw much light on anything. I don't understand the GD thing. I see that others don't , either. It seems to me ( only a subjective view) that it may have a variety of causes, and strengths, and may be an unchangeable brain condition acquired pre or post natally. It isn't about playing with "girls toys", or at least , it wasn't in my case and that of some people I know.

It was mostly young girls who got stigmata

But that might be more of a social contagion issue, which we know does affect girls more than boys.

On the other hand, there was a bizarre religious movement in 19th century Russia where men chopped off their genitals to show their religious devotion (read about it in the excellent "The people's act of love" by James Meek).

I'm honestly so scared for young women right now. Look also at rapidly rising rates of suicide among young women in China - it's manifesting in different ways in different societies, but the underlying causes are the same.

It links to the hierarchy of identity politics, where the competition is to be the group that suffers most.

In other words, there's a reason that there isn't much fuss being made about teenage girls binding and getting unneeded mastectomies, and it's a very old and very ugly one.

If you put these things together, a picture appears, does it not?

(In other words, there's a reason that there isn't much fuss being made about teenage girls binding and getting unneeded mastectomies, and it's a very old and very ugly one.)

It was mostly young girls who developed stigmata too, wasn't it? Most societies have always been very keen on women's mental and emotional anguish being acted out upon our own bodies, and women and girls are trained to go along with that because our bodies are assumed to "speak" far more clearly than our voices ever could.

valorisation of suffering

That's a really good way of putting it, and an important point. It links to the hierarchy of identity politics, where the competition is to be the group that suffers most.

And weirdly, it links as well to our Christian cultural heritage: all of those saints and martyrs, almost in competition to see who could suffer the most gruesome form of torture and death and mutilation, and achieve the greatest veneration as a result. Hmm, not sure where I'm going with this, but it just popped into my head.

That's another interesting parallel with pro-ana communities, the valorization of suffering and the way self-harming behaviors spread.

Precisely.

The phrase the conflation of individual self-harm with political defiance captures that mind-set really well, and shows how tempting yet damaging this approach can be to young people who want to see themselves as revolutionary and special.

Indeed it does and it's a vital point that shouldn't escape readers who are coming with good faith. If I were doing my own version of Stonewall's umbrella, it wouldn't be confined to physical bodily state or presentation, that's for sure.

I was also interested in the way she criticises the specific sub-group of transitioners she idenifies as "the radical queer community" for taking a specifically self-destructive approach, contrasting them with a wider group of transitioning individuals who just get on with it.

That's another interesting parallel with pro-ana communities, the valorization of suffering and the way self-harming behaviors spread.

It's disgraceful that nobody is prepared to fund such vital research. Especially when powerful and articulate writers such as Carey are providing such important detail.

Indeed, and isn't it fascinating that people are so desperate to avoid this issue being discussed that if their initial attempt at preventing discussion of the ideas presented doesn't work they'll then methodically try every other method they can think of, presumably on the assumption that if you throw enough shit at the wall some of it is bound to stick eventually?

Stylish, and sort of impressive in it's way, but ultimately, in the words of Alan Bennett, it doesn't move us any further forward.

It's a complex piece, that raises a number of different points. However, it clearly is calling for more research into detransitioning, and criticising the opponents of such research. So that would be one way forward.

I was also interested in the way she criticises the specific sub-group of transitioners she idenifies as "the radical queer community" for taking a specifically self-destructive approach, contrasting them with a wider group of transitioning individuals who just get on with it. The phrase the conflation of individual self-harm with political defiance captures that mind-set really well, and shows how tempting yet damaging this approach can be to young people who want to see themselves as revolutionary and special.

And you can see how desperate the lobby - both its extreme and so-called moderate wings - is to avoid detailed research and discussion of this and to dismiss anybody writing about it in any way it can.

Reckless. Dangerous. Vile.

Is there much support available for detransitioners? There are obviously NHS clinics and support for people transitioning, but what any detransitioners?

Clearly not much as even GIDS isn't tracking people sufficiently and James Caspian can't even get research done to provide an evidence base to construct services.

Also, because tracking is so poor and because many ROGD parents are trying to avoid the juggernaut the medical pathway has become, we don't even have a clear demarcation between what constitutes desistance and what constitutes detransition. Does one desist from a social transition or detransition from it, for example? Does binding for a length of time constitute a physical intervention and therefore transition?

We know that roughly 80% of kids desist from an original cross-sex identification and we know the puberty blockers are pretty much iatrogenic and prevent desistance but, crucially, that is all we really know.

It's disgraceful that nobody is prepared to fund such vital research. Especially when powerful and articulate writers such as Carey are providing such important detail.

Absolutely angry

completely and utterly agree

I am frightened for the young person i know struggling with this

The problem is the likelihood of those people being steered and peer pressured into taking steps that are difficult or impossible to reverse because of exposure (of society, not just the individuals themselves) to TRA propaganda. We're currently looking at a potential future of people who had unnecessary mastectomies and their plumbing rearranged and changed related to artificial hormone use because society didn't like boys playing with dolls/girl wanting to kick footballs around in the mud.

I wonder if this is what the first people who found out what Thalidomide was doing to children whose mothers were prescribed it while pregnant felt like.

Plus punctuation would have been useful

kay

I think you're right there, i think there will in theory be a lot of detransitioners as they didnt really transition in the first place and may well have been 'questioning' their identity unlike other transpeople who 'know' they should transition and feell better for it

So the young transwomen i know hasnt done anything physically yet, it would be easy for her to go back to her old life

She does intend taking hormones and having surgery though but she is at the early stages of discussions

Thats really garbled i know but im struggling to clarify that I believe that there are transpeople and people who are more questioning...but arent trans

Its a pain in the arse having to type this...maybe i should do a voice recording instead

A-B-C;
Fair question. I wish we knew the answer.

As far as I know, the answer is no. have never heard of any. But if anyone has any information, it would be fascinating to know.

My assumption, and that of any other transsexual people I know ( I personally do not know many people in the broader " trans" category) , is that they would slip back into their previous life.

Especially if, like the person in the article quoted, they had not made a long term or visually obvious transition before backing off .But would they be "scarred"?

Some would get support from other detransitioners, no doubt found via social media. I should imagine that that would be of great value to them. Sticking together against a suspicious world , etc.

Private or NHS MH support services would be expected to provide support , if required. You'd hope so.

But..... the very nature of detransitioning may mean that there is some secrecy involved. Whatever anyone does or tries to do makes someone angry and unwilling to accept them!

You'd guess that there will be a lot of them in the coming years, because the current wave of trans/ non binary/ undefined cannot be all on the road to a permanent transition to anywhere.

The only detransitioners I have known have been adult, rapid transition people who went private. They" disappeared". Dead? Back into "normal life"?.

Is there much support available for detransitioners? There are obviously NHS clinics and support for people transitioning, but what any detransitioners?

i feel like I need a shower after reading that comment at 8:22:25

I agree, it was fucking disgusting