Women's Hour today, Michelle Moore and Layla Moran, on safeguarding

People really don't join up the dots do they? We've had Rotherham etc where girls were specifically groomed into leaving support / care of their families (or the care system). We've had countless Serious Case Reviews into murdered and abused children - every one of which will have called out a lack of professionals sharing information. Yet trans groups advocate both parental alienation and keeping a child's secrets and politicians smile and throw them more £££.

This is what really does my head in. It's not about trans, FFS. It's about safeguarding. You can't take any child out of safeguarding without serious consequences yet we seem perfectly happy to do it with trans children.

And what I don't understand is this: how can Layla Moran be so breezy about the whole thing - I thought she gets her information from Belcher, who is all about the suicide risk in young transgender people?

I suspect that is all Belcher mentions when it comes to children and young people. That and how they should be allowed to use the changing rooms and toilets of the 'gender with which they identify' when they're at school.

Belcher won't have mentioned the high incidence of autistic children who think they're trans, because that knocks a hole in Belcher's argument. Belcher won't have mentioned the 80% desistance rate for the same reason. Belcher's agenda is all about getting transwomen into women's spaces, so that will be what Layla Moran has been briefed on.

LM should have done her own homework on this as preparation for WH and/or been properly briefed by an advisor who had looked at it from all angles with a more impartial view. The bias in the way she had been briefed was evident from this performance.

I'm not remotely surprised that any MP would come on to a BBC show to discuss an important current topic without doing any research beforehand. They do it all the time. Spouting nonsense from a position of ignorance seems to be the modus operandi of far too many of them.

Facilitating social transition in schools is one form of affirmation and potentially sets the child on a path towards medical interventions - of course parents should be told!
And what I don't understand is this: how can Layla Moran be so breezy about the whole thing - I thought she gets her information from Belcher, who is all about the suicide risk in young transgender people?

I think the hollowing out of the civil service over the last 8 years of austerity is really beginning to show. Politicians are struggling to keep up with or even understand the issues in front of them. This is where good, time served and knowledgeable civil servants are actually quite useful. They are the ones who distil information and brief MP's.

The groups being in schools feeding propaganda to the kids is a huge issue which I don't think was driven home enough either. Although, I was distracted by toddler and Paw Patrol was on in the background while I was listening today!

It's not about toilets. It's about power and abuse of power.

I doubt it, these people seem to think this whole thing is about toilets, i suspect a wider issue caught her off guard

I think she mentioned Helen Belcher as the source of her information during the parliamentary debate last week www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3429969-Watch-live-Government-debate-on-self-ID?msgid=82783359#82783359

This is an important point and one that is increasingly standing out to me.

All our parliamentarians are at least two years behind the actual conversation that is happening. It is very concerning.

This is something that has become very apparent to me since 2015. Its not just about the trans issue, but just about every political issue I've looked at in any way. Brexit is the most glaring example of it.

There is at least a two year delay in what is spoken about on MN and what hits the newspapers and politics.

Politicians should be leading the way, not playing catch up. They should be spotting the trend and spotting the issues BEFORE they happen in a proactive manner.

The fact we lack the political foresight on so many issues, is frankly terrifying.

Maybe her advisor let her down.

I doubt it, these people seem to think this whole thing is about toilets, i suspect a wider issue caught her off guard.

Maybe her advisor let her down.

Good point about you tube.

Spot on did.

I've said it before; I'll say it again.

A high number of children on the spectrum are extremely addicted to YouTube. Great when it's mostly science or mine craft; not so great when they're looking at things that perhaps are rather complex and will affect their sense of self.

I agree that, at first glance, it's astounding Layla Moran obviously thought she needed to do no research around this topic, before appearing on Radio 4. Even a cursory read would have brought up the issue of the high proportion of autistic children.

Thinking further about it, however, it's actually shocking testimony to the effectiveness of the Guardian, the BBC, and above all Stonewall, in allowing left-wing politicians to exist in a delusional complacency that they "know" there is only one valid side to this discussion, and thus any kind of research is unnecessary.

Just listened to the whole! very impressed with the program and running order which perhaps gave a larger context and allowed connections to be drawn between many things

Reality of female biology including developmental and menopausal , fertility preservation for young women undergoing cancer treatment, touching on the issues of an early medically induced menopause and menopausal reversal for this group, plus discussion on the ethics of menopause reversal and use of hormonal etc treatments , analogous to trans age-trying to reverse biological ageing processes, also a good discussion of issues around menopause eg needs of symptom control vs side effects/unknown effects on whole body systems

sandwiching a debate between 2 very polite speakers on current demands for unquestioning social transition for school children and safeguarding, with one citing her own data and research, the other underprepared and being pulled up on poor analogies or disengenious confusion of terms/concepts

and then a discussion on blackfishing, authenticity, appropriation of culture and experience, privilege and relations between groups, with the obvious analogies to transition and assumption of identity without shared experience!

Im very glad someone has sat and thought this order through

Sport is coming up, JG keeps saying so, so maybe next week?

Why is this a new phenomenon in autistic children, Layla? Autistic children were not being 'upfront about being trans' five or ten years ago. They are the canary in the social contagion coalmine. Vulnerable children. It is disgraceful that adults are enabling this. as dragon 3 said earlier.
Why is it so obviously social contagion to concerned parents and just not acknowledged by others in positions of power?

Sport was mentioned yesterday as something to be covered- I wonder when?

But hey, four good programmes in a row, and on the BBC. Hopefully these will provide evidence that there are meaty issues to debate and that women's voices need to be heard.

I do have some sympathy about keeping the confidentiality, especially for teens.

But, surely that would be more about when the feelings and thoughts are told to the teacher in confidence. Not for when the child is openly trans at school and being known as a new name and being treated as their acquired gender.

I've mostly just felt that the discussion is always too short and not able to cover all of the nuances.

No discussion today about the toilets at schools, or which dorms will be used on school trips etc. That for me is more of the safeguarding than the talk of bullying. It was a very narrow discussion really.

“Our identity is being stripped hollow and that, in some tiny way, is where I can help by saying who I am and what I am,” she said.

Oh the irony, this was Layla Moran speaking about the Israel/Palestine situation and her increasing fear of the loss of her Palestinian identity. “In all the speeches about the embassy, the word ‘Palestinian’ was never used. They spoke about ‘the other side.’
Indeed.

Great posts NeurotrashWarrior & lucydo

People really don't join up the dots do they? We've had Rotherham etc where girls were specifically groomed into leaving support / care of their families (or the care system). We've had countless Serious Case Reviews into murdered and abused children - every one of which will have called out a lack of professionals sharing information. Yet trans groups advocate both parental alienation and keeping a child's secrets and politicians smile and throw them more £££.

I find it frightening that Layla Moran couldn't see a problem with schools not sharing with parents discussions that they are having with a student about being trans. Michelle Moran pointed out how dangerous it was to cut young people off from their natural support group this way, making them more vulnerable to pressure groups who are allowed to operate in schools.
It seems, to me at least, as part of the authoritarian narrative that the state knows best. But then, that is a left wing view IMO

Two things:

This was a brilliant example of someone who thinks they're an expert and expressed opinions based on brief personal anecdotal experiences verses someone who has been researching this in depth and expresses the evidence and facts.

Professionally dangerous yes as Layla is now a policy influencer. Sticking your fingers in your ears and disagreeing with facts based on anecdotal experiences is dangerous.

Also, if Layla had taught PE she wouldn't be spouting this crap. You're not allowed to mix sexes in changing rooms. Sports days are sex split for a bloody good reason.

Secondly - there has been much criticism of WH for not taking these issues on. Better late than never however I've noticed that the scheduling around these specific trans programmes is especially strong with regards to really important biological female concerns as well as the nod to appropriation that was on today.

Even when WH hasn't had these specific trans issues on, it has only ever been able to feature articles on women, and has never especially included TW, bar that awful play that isn't exactly part of the programme and repeated late at night. They simply can't be fully 'inclusive' of TW but they're gagged by diversity policies so can't 'come out' like this so to speak.

This series is far too late GRC wise but I'm so glad it's on. I hope Layla attempts to listen to the other programmes as she needs to get up to bloody speed with this.

Thingy
Well I guess it's like my girls wearing trousers. I don't see I problem with flexibility within the set uniform regulations.

Wow, the juxtaposition with the 'black phishing(sp?) was amazingly resonant. Literally every part of the discussion was relatable back to the trans debate.'. It was about white womens appropriation of black cluture.

'taking everything but the burden. ' was an excellent quote

Those women talking about the subject sounded awesome. Passionate, well informed (and unable to talk about it as openly as they would wish).