I was one of the transactivists on the channel 4 documentary, I regret what I did — this is why

FloralBunting, LangCleg and others, I have said before, many times, how much I admire your stance and the firm position you and others take.

So please do not see my words as appealing to you for a female socialization.

I feel personally that sometimes the words said by some can create a picture of gender critical women which fails to truly represent what is meant/ what we actually believe.

It is not female capitulation I am suggesting.

Like many here seeing the trans young people's lives and the elements of 'persecution' perceived by them I just feel sometimes we do ourselves a disservice.

I am thinking particularly of young trans men. My heart breaks for these dysphoric young women and girls.

I am happy for any tiny crack in the dome of young trans people's perceptions that feminists are somehow the enemy.

Anyway, my comments are not directed at anyone on this thread. I am speaking in general in support of Esther, in the words of Hot Fuzz - "For the greater good."

Being ‘nice’ while someone is attempting to hijack our language, remove our rights, and take our spaces isn’t going to make them stop, or talk, or even really listen.

Well said, WeRiseUp.

You'll notice there are very few pleas to indulge it due to the sad feels I might be having.

Quite.

I found it very liberating and gratifying when Posie said on TV that "women are allowed to be angry" and when Julia Hartley-Brewer was so fierce saying "don't call me cis!". We need more of that.

I am sure Esther Betts is going to be alright and has heard worse than 'clown'. I think Betts is interested in free speech rather than women's rights, which is fine by me. If Esther Betts can lead the way in getting these nut jobs in masks whom Betts used to belong, to back the fuck off, then that is a big step in getting this discussion happening properly.

It's like in Reading the week before last, when I walked out of the meeting to a chorus of "shame", from aggressive masked young males very like Esther was in Bristol in thinking they could bully women into silence.

They're wasting their breath on me. I don't feel any shame. I would feel ashamed if I didn't stand against this. I think THEY are the ones who should be ashamed.

It is also interesting to see how many people find this challenging.

You'll notice there are very few pleas to indulge it due to the sad feels I might be having.

And what Floral said. I don't care if other people who have not one scrap of consideration or empathy for the feelings and needs of women think I am "lacking in compassion".

I really do not care how I come across and I do not respond well to appeals to female socialisation.

This.

I actually enjoy the bracing sharp words of a feminist who refuses to capitulate, compromise or take her eye off the prize - women's liberation from male domination.

It focuses the mind.

It is also interesting to see how many people find this challenging. It is so gender non-conforming when women refuse to be 'nice' it messes with people's heads.

I really do not care how I come across and I do not respond well to appeals to female socialisation.

Yes Ereshkigal I get that. However, I do think that sometimes we can lose support because of how 'we' (gender critical feminists) come across. It's being compassionate for women of course but I do think sometimes we can come across in a certain way (or at least i expect I have!)

I completely reject that the GC feminists here lack compassion. There are many, many expressions of sympathy for the difficulties transpeople find themselves dealing with, for a start.
But the women here uniformly express compassion primarily for women - compassion = to suffer with. The women here have a focus on the difficulties and suffering and oppression of women.

As has been said ad nauseam, the only reason trans issues figure here at all is in their intersection with Women's rights.

This particular trans person has made a few steps towards basic decency by acknowledging that threats, violence and intimidation are a bad thing. This is one heck of a baby step towards 'reconciliation', and I and others remain unconvinced as to why it is incumbent upon women to have compassion on someone who has only recently, reluctantly, and rather half heartedly decided that screaming threats at us in a mask is 'unhelpful'.

It may be a low bar but it's still better than the ditch some are digging! No, they're not standing up for women. But even if the message is 100% selfish I'm not going to complain if it helps. And if it makes more question they might get a but further along. I can hope.

Sometimes we need to think more about the lack of compassion for ourselves and other women.

Qcng "Trans un-peak? Peak GC feminism? Moment" Is it really possible to un-peak trans? Or is it more a realisation the compassion you expect to find in gender critical feminists isn't always there? I've had that moment before too.

It's like, "oh my god not every video in the world is made by a woman" sort of response. It's ridiculous.

No it's not. That's not what was being said. You're completely missing the point. Please don't misrepresent people's views, including mine.

R0wantrees "There are more talks on youtube and some very successful vloggers, many of the transmen make a plea on behalf of transwomen, "who have a much tougher time" etc"

And

Qcng

"There are tons of transmen and transboy icons on YouTube / Twitter / Facebook / Tumblr. They are extremely influential and lead to many starry-eyed young girls following the path to transition.
There are tons of videos made by women / former transmen who have detransitioned, explaining at length their plight, the dangers, the regrets. You only need to search for it to find them."

Yes, sorry I have seen this and seen vidoes of Trans men. Sorry I didn't word that well. I meant that the debate in the media and interviews etc seem to be much more centered around trans women than trans men.

The clips I've seen of trans men seem to be more just that, a trans man talking to camera.

Yes, I completely know starry eyed females follow them. It is a tradegy.

However, I was thinking more of interviews, articles etc where questions are asked.

They are more likely to get listened to for a start. But we have long been calling for trans people to make a stand - we shouldn't object to them when they do.

Esther is not sticking up for women. Esther is no Miranda Yardley. All Esther is doing is realising misogynistic aggressiveness is somewhat counterproductive. Which is something, but we're setting the bar a bit low here I think.

Esther is very much a TRA, who has just written an article about how self IDing MTFs should be allowed to use women's refuges.

Qcng"But more crucially their target audience is NOT feminists. It's other trans people. It's trans people themselves reaching out to other trans people (and obviously others curious about the issue). So complaining that it's all male people talking about it is so very petty because they aren't talking about women's issues."

I actually agree with this. Sometimes we are not the target market. You will always moderate your message depending on who you are talking to - you would explain FGM in a different way to a child than you would an adult, for example. If Esther is trying to speak to other trans people Esther will phrase it in one way. To feminists another. And to people who have no idea about any of this in a third.

And it is good if trans people who are seeing the danger of TRAs do talk about it to other trans (and the woke!). They are more likely to get listened to for a start. But we have long been calling for trans people to make a stand - we shouldn't object to them when they do. I'm not saying I agree with everything Esther has said but I do support their saying it to other trans people.

R0wan
Good grief that person is truly suckered in, with false suicide statistics and everything.
Really really sad.
Imagining you are a toys "dad" when you are child does not mean you are "really a man".
What this person quaintly calls "help" - meaning a lifetime of medicalisation, Testosterone, HRT, and a double mastectomy, and never becoming a man no matter how much you want it, obviously needs gatekeeping. Rushing young adults onto this path is exactly what this person is promoting. They are so dangerous.

There are tons of transmen and transboy icons on YouTube / Twitter / Facebook / Tumblr. They are extremely influential and lead to many starry-eyed young girls following the path to transition.
There are tons of videos made by women / former transmen who have detransitioned, explaining at length their plight, the dangers, the regrets. You only need to search for it to find them.

I've got no desire to insult ttans people That's good. I was commenting on the general tone of this thread not you personally, sorry, a thread which for me has lead to another, what do they call it?
Trans un-peak? Peak GC feminism? Moment.

There do not seem to be as many videos made by trans men.

If you (or a child / young person) types 'am I transgender' into youtube most of the top rated ones are transmen.

I watched quite a few and from memory, without exception, they all said, "If you think you might be, you probably are"

See also this 2016 TEdTalk
A Trans Man at the Doctor's | Toby Walker |
81,448 views

*A few months ago Toby Walkerwas part of a protes against the fact that scheduled mastectomies for females who identify as trans / non-binary were being deferred due to mastectomies for women with breast cancer.^

There are more talks on youtube and some very successful vloggers, many of the transmen make a plea on behalf of transwomen, "who have a much tougher time" etc

I personally do not care what Esther looks like or what motive Esther has for transition. Any "insult" - aka criticism - I make of Esther is based on a structural position that sees and condemns the leveraging of sex-based and class-based cultural capital and structural power to remove women's rights.

Don't you think trans men might have something...