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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NYTimes: A Vagina Won't Make Me Happy - But It's My Right to Get One Anyway

136 replies

Vegilante · 25/11/2018 00:30

New opinion piece by "essayist & critic" Andrea Long Chu that says drastic medical interventions such as hormones & genital surgeries should be given on demand to trans people - even when they're so deeply unhappy they feel suicidal, & they're convinced the treatments they're demanding will only make them more miserable.

Why? 1) Because the "true purpose" of medicine's "first do no harm" maxim "is not to shield patients from injury but to install the medical professional as a little king of someone else’s body." And 2) because "the negative passions — grief, self-loathing, shame, regret — are as much a human right as universal health care, or food."

www.nytimes.com/2018/11/24/opinion/sunday/vaginoplasty-transgender-medicine.html

Since many people won't be able to access the article, I'll copy & paste it, with apologies to copyright holder(s).

OP posts:
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Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 27/11/2018 13:32

Thank you pom and angry Grin

Im still a bit confused at the jump, but can see where weetabix was coming from with the 'you'

Plus i would just jump to plastic surgery...not SRS

Anyway all done now

Badmoonsarising · 26/11/2018 23:54

Yip, not happy at all!

NYTimes: A Vagina Won't Make Me Happy - But It's My Right to Get One Anyway
pombear · 26/11/2018 23:48

AAK grey glinting balls perhaps? Or just 'Grey balls' will be enough for us to celebrate in our new grey, 'can't say anything' new order?

FYI to other fellow posters, when I post glitterballs I will be saying:-

"sad grey ball sack in the age of both Brexit and male genitaiia = female world"

AngryAttackKittens · 26/11/2018 23:36

They're a bit depressed looking, aren't they? Maybe designed to reflect the British climate, so they glitter in a grey, subdued sort of way.

pombear · 26/11/2018 23:33

Not relevant to thread at all, ignore,ignore. All about the 'glitterball' emojis.

In my head I have already named them 'grumpy balls' due to their distinct greyness and fucked-off look about them. Maybe that's because my eyesight is not as it was, but they look like bombs, not glitterati!

pombear · 26/11/2018 23:31

Oh crap, my glitterballs didn't glitter.

Here you go Rufus - have some balls that truly glitter my lovely! (Though they look a bit sad and grey, despite their identifying as glitterballs!)

Glitterball Glitterball

pombear · 26/11/2018 23:29

[glitterbal] [glitterbal] Rufus Star Star

Grammatical issues, which most posters here (I'm assuming - so, shoot me!) would have understood. I'm sure many of us didn't jump to 'so you're implying someone else is having SRS'. Almost odder for someone to jump to that implication!

Sending shite flowers and reindeer poo to you.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/11/2018 23:19

Hey, everyone be nice to our resident reindeer, who is frankly often kinder to other people than they deserve.

MrGHardy · 26/11/2018 23:02

Can I just have the money? If it's my 'right' to have a vagina, can I instead take 90% of the cost in cash, NHS would save 10%.

We now live in a world where people can cry 1. I am so oppressed and subsequently 2. my demands are 'rights'. McKinnon also argues that TW in women's sports is not a question of fairness but of TW's 'human rights'. It's incredibly insidious but sadly very effective - who wants to argue against someone's 'human rights'?

2rebecca · 26/11/2018 22:53

I think the medical treatment of wealthy people with odd health beliefs like Michael Jackson show that even if you're paying for medical treatment you shouldn''t get what you want. Getting a doctor to give you an anaesthetic to help you to sleep should never have been possible and then there is all the dubious plastic surgery on his facial structure. People want some weird crap done to themselves sometimes. Helping them harm and mutilate themselves shouldn't be in any doctor's role..

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/11/2018 18:11

I meant if someone is paying to have treatment then they can fill their boots...

If someone pays they can do what they like to themselves whether the medical profession agrees or not

Not you.....the royal you Grin

Honestly, i now understand where you are coming from , though i dont think my post was THAT odd

Anyway, apology accepted and im sorry if my post led you to believe i was having a pop at you

Weetabixandshreddies · 26/11/2018 17:29

Apologies if I've misunderstood but your post is very odd then.

You say this
If you are paying for it then fill your boots

And then this

I say we...i mean you grin

I just got confused with the whole c section bit

Seems like you are implying that I would be having SRS.

Apologies for misunderstanding. No idea what you meant then.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/11/2018 17:22

How in earth have you reached that weetabix

I mean that i thought you and the other posters (who are grammatically you as well) were talking about surgery in the NHS and then I just leapt in without understanding the argument

I at no point have ever ever said on mumsnet or in RL that anyone who disagrees with me is a man

Where in any of my posts have i said you are a man

And what gender stereotypes?

Dont make stuff up and attribute it to me

Weetabixandshreddies · 26/11/2018 16:31

I say we...i mean you grin

Cos, what I can't be a woman and disagree with you?

Yeah. Gender stereotypes alive and well here huh?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/11/2018 15:47

I say we...i mean you Grin

I just got confused with the whole c section bit

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/11/2018 15:46

If they can all do that then why should other choices not be allowed?

Other choices should absolutely and completely and utterly be fine...if its paid for privately

Sorry i thought we were talking about it being on the NHS

If you are paying for it then fill your boots

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/11/2018 15:43

You have no idea of my views on SRS weetabix

None at all

But you were making very silly comparisons

If you made one for plastic surgery such as boob reduction then i think most people woukd be happy arguing the point

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/11/2018 13:51

Echoes of the action for trans health manifesto here ... give me what I want immediately or I will ...

Weetabixandshreddies · 26/11/2018 11:42

deepwatersolo

I completely agree.

deepwatersolo · 26/11/2018 11:40

Zucker is sane not sance, obviously. Hmm

deepwatersolo · 26/11/2018 11:38

To my mind those drs were paternalistic. They made choices on a patient's behalf by limiting the options that they presented.

I agree with you on that, Weetabixandshreddies. Drs clearly need to give a full overview about what is possible regarding the condition in question, what they can do and what can be done only elsewhere (where?) and who pays for it. I know it isn't always done like that, but a professional doctor will do that.

A friend of mine, MD, had a well paid job at an equivalent to the NHS in continental Europe. She had to decide, who is eligible for some procedure and who is not. And the decisions were clearly based on 'who needs it most' and 'how much money in total can we spend'. She quit, because she found it very taxing to deny treatment to people, who would clearly need it - just not badly enough.

I still think that, even if she had been able to grant every procedure she found useful for the patients, this is very different from SRS 'on demand', as regarding SRS, clearly, you need very thorough psychotherapy beforehand, to weed out self-harmers, get to the bottom of the motivation, manage expectations, in order for there to be a condition where it can be secured that a transition process will indeen increase the wellbing for the patient.

(Personally, I believe, in cases where these conditions of thorough therapy are fulfilled, NHS&Co should pay for SRS. Heck, Dr. Ken Zucker is a sance specialist in the field and he thinks SRS can make sense in some cases, and he should know. But obviously he is not on board with 'on demand').

Melanippe · 26/11/2018 11:17

Hardly surprising Ereshkigal given that it suggests that not all is rosy post or even pre transition. I find it very strange that neither the post-op complications nor the post-op dissatisfaction rates are ever discussed, despite the evidence for them. The TRA unhappiness with this article suggests that that might be a deliberate thing.

Ereshkigal · 26/11/2018 11:12

From what I've seen the TRAs aren't happy about this article.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/11/2018 11:11

If I wear a lot of black clothes and am agile and able to move quietly can I be a Social Justice Ninja?

Melanippe · 26/11/2018 11:07

Well exactly, AAK

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