Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

After DD challenged the “Mum’s favourite chore” exercise it was confirmed to me that the school wouldn’t use that format again.

However, we have a higher than average number of traveller families in our school with some very traditional ideas about male and female sex roles which we have to approach in a different way, otherwise it can come across as criticising their culture and lifestyle.

When you still get news like this on almost a weekly basis, feminism is much needed:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46315969?fbclid=IwAR1DSgG-uR3EkpGi77rnzQApze1CDR7d6CLgf1ZUsVTdoI-C-rkzYI0oX-s

"Little Susie/Bobby, don't kick the dog, it hurts him and it's not nice."

Gosh, why all the negative messages?

If a man or boy interprets "don't beat or rape women and girls" as a personal attack or an attach on men and boys as a whole then that certainly does tell us some interesting things about what's going on in his head.

Sorry to HAVE lol

NonaGrey

Has your son really never been told that he couldn't do something because he is a boy?

So if he said he wanted to do ballet would no one comment negatively? Or if he said that once married he wanted to stay at home with the children? But your daughter could say any of those or that she wants to play football and that would be ok.

You also say no one passes comment on what he wears. So again, if he wanted to wear a dress? Yet your daughter can equally wear trousers or a dress without comment.

O do wonder if the reason why no one has said you can't to your son is because he is adhering to the male stereotypes and were he to stray outside of those things would be very different?

Yes but my point is that boys only have to look at a paper, the news, the broad leadership of their countries, every great leader in history, most global heads of business, to BE positive role models for them!

I find there's a small but extremely vocal number of feminists who are extremely quick to hound anyone with even the smallest fraction of deviation on what constitutes feminist beliefs and values before declaring them either 'not an x feminist' or 'not a feminist' entirely. I believe this is an attempt to, quickly and with minimal effort, force others into assimilating their beliefs because they either have no interest or capacity for discussion.

Reading your messages, it does seem to me that you are a feminist because you recognise that the more misandric view presented by certain feminists (hating men, when they perhaps should be directing their ire against the patriarchy, regardless of sex) are harmful to everyone in the long run. I can understand why they act this way, it's a lot easier to release that anger upon the symptoms than the cause.

If you truly believe that what you do and say benefits society in a way that ultimately leads women to equality then you're a feminist in my books. If you're willing to robustly discuss and debate why you hold those beliefs, to explore and refine both your beliefs and those held by others then you're a great feminist in my books .

I'm a little confused why the message feminism has for males- 'Don't rape, murder, hurt or oppress women. Challenge and stop other men who do." Is a negative message?

The OP seems to have conveniently forgotten all these feminist campaigns that they are referencing so they cannot point us to which ones in particular they are referring to. Weird that.

Not sure how allowing children to thump each other is meant to make feminism more effective. Not convinced the OP knows either, it all just seems to be a bit "well I've decided these women are nasty and wrong and now I will work backwards in order to find justifications for that position".

Not worth the bother of a serious counterargument, as Bunbury would say.

I'm a little confused why the message feminism has for males- 'Don't rape, murder, hurt or oppress women. Challenge and stop other men who do." Is a negative message?

And as for not engaging with traditionally 'masculine' traits, surely protecting the vulnerable and leading others in virtue are part of that message?

Do you honestly think that feminist mothers of boys (there’s quite a few I would imagine) go round berating their sons, stifle their ambitions, talk them down etc...

Judging by the views on the "male children in female toilets" thread sadly, yes I think some do. I can't believe that if some of those posters have male children that the sons don't pick up on their mother's view of them.

If the genuine aim is to improve things for women then you have to realise that males who are men now, so have grown up in a male centred culture, aren t necessarily the best people to effect the change that we all hope to see. That change will be driven by boys raised today in a different culture (if we can expose them to it). We have to change the views and expectations of both girls and boys. Teach both that gender is nonsense, that no one is limited by their sex, that men don't automatically forge careers while women raise children and work part time but also teach that girls shouldn't expect to be treated differently, that they shouldn't expect to work part time after babies and that should be a joint decision, that they shouldn't judge either themselves or other women on their appearance.

Yes men need to change but so do women.

The purpose of feminism is the liberation of women and girls. It has no more responsibility to provide positive images of men than a black rights campaign has to provide positive images of white people, or a campaign for disabled people has to provide positive images of the able-bodied.

I agree that it's important for boys to hear positive messages, but that is in no way the job of feminism. If you're worried that there isn't enough celebration of good, kind, responsible men, then you do something about it. Feminism isn't a catch-all category for solving every problem in the world.

Society strongly sends the message that
boys = active, leaders, brave, strong girls = kind, caring, quiet, calm.

Feminism points out that these expectations inhibit boys from valuing other characteristics in themselves such as compassion and kindness and inhibit girls from valuing being strong and active.

That’s not to say that boys can’t also be active and leaders and that girls can’t be kind and compassionate but that imposing sex based stereotypes causes everyone to lose out by not allowing them to flourish as well rounded people who embrace and value all parts of their personality.

It addresses the imbalance that exists but doesn’t mean that feminism is trying to suppress personality traits - it just points out that it does a disservice to everyone to promote and inhibit certain things based on sex.

Part of the problem is that girls are taught that fighting back, standing up for themselves and embracing their inner capacity for power and aggression is 'unwomanly' by the patriarchy and 'conforming to masculine norms' by the feminists. Instead of crippling boys the way that sexism crippled girls, both sexes should be taught to embrace and channel their rage and will-to-power equally.

Don't teach young people that freezing is an appropriate response to aggression. 'Femininity' pure social brainwashing to induce vulnerability. Emotional incontinence is a sign of immaturity whether the individual is male or female and the fact that we tell young girls that it's normal and expected is part of the patriarchy's programme of infantilisation for women.

Let's not get hung up on the violence bit.

Hard to do when men are killing 2-3 women/girls a week.

I wonder if the pro-violence between children brigade have thought through how that might come across to randoms.

But in practice it shames boys and men with nothing positive to say.

No, feminism recognises that men CAN be better and encourages them to be.