Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

I agree with you ScipioAfricanus. You make some great points

I haven’t said DS is perfect, or invulnerable or responsible for his sister. I’m not teaching him that either.

The point I was trying to make was that just that he has privilege. A lot of privilege.

Much of which his sister shares.

But it cannot be denied that the fact he is male gives him a head start. It will continue to give him an unfair advantage for his whole life

He has that unfair advantage whether he wants it or not. I’m just trying to raise him to be aware of that advantage and demonstrate how it can be used to help those who don’t share it. Whether that’s women or any other disadvantaged minority.

Much of the power in society is held by middle class white men. So it surely follows that it would benefit society if the next generation of middle class white men appreciated their privilege, recognised the struggles of others and tried to make things better?

Even now eyebrows would be raised if a boy wanted to study ballet or play netball for example. Not by feminists who actually do not rule the world.

Who is actively discouraging this - men and women who aren't feminists.

Awild, bit the message is not just don't do something, it's a message that says something is harmful, therefore...

Most people, when encouraged towards some action, tend to ask why. As distasteful male violence is, if you don't understand the issue, you won't see the vital necessity of the positive exhortation.

Like, my dad and my husband didn't understand my perspective about walking to the bus stop in the dark, until k explained the negative to them.

Are you saying that those messages are being perpetuated by feminists?

Definitely by some feminists yes, how many I have no idea. Some are on here though. Definitely by many women.

How can we remove gender stereotypes when we continue to perpetuate them whilst saying "well it's up to men to do it"?

It's the difference between "Don't run in the corridor" and "Walk sensibly in the corridor".

The latter is a positive message, the former is a negative one

No actually the former is a clear, concise, unambiguous instruction in relation to safety.

The former is virtually meaningless- how does one "walk sensibly"? Other than avoiding impersonating John Cleese.

bullying he may well face

The children of the best educated mothers have the best outcomes in terms of their future prospects, independent of their father's qualifications.

Which is a rather wonderful argument for feminism.

Boys have a zillion positive role models. Which is why girls need to be told they can.

Boys know they can grow up to be CEOs it doesn't hurt to suggest that they don't model themselves on Philip Green.

As a feminist mother of a son (no daughters), I am aware that some things facing him are worse and different from those that face girls. Specifically, the risk of suicide and violence (not sexual). These are directly related to the patriarchal society which says he must be strong and a provider (don’t talk about your feelings) and which consistently glorifies violence. Then there is bullying heat well face for not being ‘manly’ enough - not being good enough at sports, liking reading, being caring and kind to animals. I loved your post, Nona. In the later post you mention alpha men, and I feel like that’s something which is also worse for men. Women have the ‘in’ crowd etc but men are sorted into better and worse (by a patriarchal society). My son could maybe get away with some of his less ‘masculine’ traits if he was also sporty and tall and strong etc - but if he doesn’t have those characteristics he doesn’t get to have the others without being deemed ‘beta’. That’s something my husband had to endure at school especially, and I think he’s just as wonderful as men who have all the traits.

Absolutely all of this seems to me to be connected to the patriarchy. When I raise him with feminist messages, I am definitely caring about him as much as I am about women. I care more about him than I do women in general, on some level. I think that anything done to break down gender roles helps my son just as much as it does women.

AWildThoughAppeared

Lass - The only important violence is that of men on women. All other combinations aren't worth talking about. You agree?

Eh? What on earth are you on about? Male violence against women, children, men and animals is one of the major problems we (meaning all of society) face.

Your comment that most victims of violence in this world are men adds nothing to the debate. We all already know this. Male violence can be stopped by men ceasing to be violent. If they did around 99% of violent acts would cease to happen.

How do you suggest we (meaning all of society) stop this given you seem to think telling boys not to do things is enforcing negative attitudes?

I really dislike name calling on either side. One of the patronising words that always comes up in the list of words that MN users hate is 'Menz'. ZenNudist used it in one of the first posts. It is rude, patronising and unhelpful and immediately makes me suspicious of the posters intentions.
Name calling and using words as a put down should not be part of intelligent debate.

I wonder how many men would try out one of the few traditionally female sports, like dance or netball, based on a #ThisBoyCan campaign.

Actually I think they would. If male netball teams were started I think men would join. As it stands though they don't play at school because it's not offered to boys and I've never seen it on offer to men either.

My husband comes to pilates and yoga with me at our gym. Only 2 men are in the class and I've heard some of the women in our class quietly moaning about their presence. Except, it's not a single sex class, it's open to everyone, they haven't shoved their way in. It's just that the women in the class view these activities as " female" so in their minds men shouldn't be there.

Yep! I'm all on board with positive messages! :)

Weetabixabdshreddies- I agree. Are you saying that those messages are being perpetuated by feminists? One of the key tenets of feminism is that people of both sexes should be freed from gender stereotypes!

Awild, with specific reference to feminism, male violence towards women is more important than male on male violence, yes.

As I said, what is negative about saying "This is wrong, don't do it, this is right, do this instead?"

bold fail!

Has the OP given any examples of the negative messages feminism is sending to boys yet so we can have a proper discussion?

Here's some

Girls can wear pretty much whatever they want without comment (I'm talking about trousers, skirts, dresses not value judgements based on what they look like)

Boys can't. Very few parents would allow their son to wear a dress or a pink sparkly t shirt just because they wanted to. It certainly would not be seen as usual.

Plenty of girls are encouraged to play what might once have been considered male sports. Even now eyebrows would be raised if a boy wanted to study ballet or play netball for example.

A man saying that he wants to be a SAHP would be viewed as different. I remember speaking to a dad at a playgroup who felt so very isolated because he was the only man their and the mums ignored him. No one treated him as any other new parent simply because he was male.

The way I see it is that girls are encouraged to ignore stereotypical gender roles. That anything is open to them and yet boys are still held to these gender stereotypes and then berated for doing the very thing that they have been brought up to do.

*Every time you tweet #ThisGirlCan ask yourself why you aren't tweeting #ThisBoyCan as well.

Don't leave it to the culture and media to talk positively to boys. Get in there with your message too.*

Are you doing these things? All feminist movements (or any movement) begins with one person having the idea and implementing it. If you see something that you think should be done, do it!

God, women, will you not just accept the fact that everything is your job because men can't possibly be expected to do it themselves? This is a totally positive way to talk to and about men, by the way. Yay empowerment.

I'm a bit puzzled by the references to Bunbury here. Bunbury is great, and her insights are often important, but she's not really relevant to this thread, IMO. Arguing against people you disagree with is a good way to sharpen your arguments, and can sometimes show different perspectives you haven't thought of.

I've written a paper about #ThisGirlCan. It's about participation in sports and physical activity, and aimed at adult women rather than girls. I wonder how many men would try out one of the few traditionally female sports, like dance or netball, based on a #ThisBoyCan campaign. Easy mistake to make, though, since adult men don't generally get infantilised by being called boys.

I mean that you won't change the whole world by only reaching out to half the world.

Right. So if only we did more to reach out to men, then those men who do violently oppress women and girls would stop doing it. Feminism hasn't been successful enough because we just don't focus on men enough.

Well, that's me told. I think I'll go off and read some feminist theory now. Maybe Bunbury.