Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

We're here again aren't we? If there's a problem with men, with men's behaviour, with the way men are viewed shouldn't it be men who try to put that right? Why is it always down to us?

Surely because if you always do as you've always done you'll always get what you've always got?

How will men learn to do it differently if they are never brought up to be different because we are waiting for men to do it differently?

Why don't we as women start that change by raising our sons and daughters differently?

He doesn’t have to actually fight a fight they all know he’d win.

When I asked my husband why he thought women were oppressed he said 'because they are smaller'.

give me some examples of feminist messages to boys that aren't based around telling them what not to do.

The only things I’ve seen feminists tell men not to do are harass, abuse, assault or discriminate. It’s hardly a high bar.

Beyond that, a large part of feminism is encouraging men to be equal parthere and parents, be respectful towards women - again, hardly a high bar.

I don’t understand all the issues around men’s role - feminists don’t want women’s roles either. The point to all is that your sex shouldn’t prevent you from doing anything in particular aside from the obvious limitations.

Rugby, soccer, cricket, athletics, many other sports. Martial arts in particular.

Business, politics, science.

Which of the above is lacking in positive male role models channeling competition and ambition?

You are quite right. Now where are the male role models showing boys that liking dancing, painting, nursing, being a primary school teacher etc are all equally applicable to boys?

I don't know what netball is but where is this nonsense about boys and ballet coming from?

Netball is sort of similar to basketball but played by girls and women.

Ballet is very much seen as an activity for little girls. Yes, men might well go to watch performances and clearly men become professional dancers but there would be an enormous difference in the number of school age girls vs boys who go to a ballet class. It is never presented to boys as an option in the way that say football would be.

We're here again aren't we? If there's a problem with men, with men's behaviour, with the way men are viewed shouldn't it be men who try to put that right? Why is it always down to us?

"Definitely by some feminists yes, how many I have no idea. Some are on here though. Definitely by many women. "
I have never met a feminist who thinks boys and men should be bound by traditional stereotypes. I have met women who do-but never a feminist.

Even now eyebrows would be raised if a boy wanted to study ballet or play netball for example

Not by feminists who actually do not rule the world
Who is actively discouraging this - men and women who aren't feminists

I don't know what netball is but where is this nonsense about boys and ballet coming from?

I go to many, many dance performances, ballet and contemporary. Most , especially if it is a company like the Royal Ballet, the Marinsky, Nederlands Dans, are sold out. There as many men as women in the audience. So who exactly is supposedly pushing the idea boys don't do ballet?.

Men are asked to be allies. If any of you followed the Spanish news on women's protests after the horrible rape case of "La manada" (the wolf pack), you'll have seen that many men were there asking for the same, criticising patriarchy and attacking toxic masculinity. This is very recent and only today resurfaced again because of a similar case. There's a massive protest tomorrow, some of you might want to tune to international news to see men and women together asking for a more balanced society.
Feminism is also concerned with the issues behind male mental issues, many of which area consequence of toxic masculinity.
Feminism also wants fathers to share caring duties with longer paternity leave.

There is an imbalance because women started fighting for women 100+ years ago with the suffragettes where as the only men that I see who have made positive contributions to mankind is the gay rights activists. Men need to stand up against toxic masculinity but in the while they seem fine about it. My kids are teens and the only positive males I see who are changing things are YouTube stars like
When we imagine a leader of a country, a professor, a general, a sports superstar or an astronaut it is dominantly Male (with a nod to but they could be female) Your son will see no shortage of male empowerment in his life. We will probably have a male prime minister after May and he won't have the clue who the female equivalents of Lewis Hamilton, Ant&Dec, Simon Cowell, Usain Bolt or Christian Ronaldo are.

*Then there is bullying heat well face for not being ‘manly’ enough - not being good enough at sports, liking reading, being caring and kind to animals

Oh come on- that really is a bit of an exaggeration.*

You’re entitled to believe that Lass, but I’ve seen it time and time again in schools over the last decade and a half, so I don’t consider it exaggerated!

Also relevant is, I think, my experience as a teacher. Whenever I directly address sexism, misogyny, the oppression of women in my classes, it is met by some resistance and resentment by some boys (and the very occasional girl). The content I am teaching is male oriented 99% of the time. It’s very interesting to me how a significant proportion of the boys tend to take that for granted and see any interjection or rebalancing as eye-roll-worthy or annoying. The male centredness is seen as ‘correct’ and ‘on the syllabus’. That speaks to me of a huge amount of privilege which can only have come from being raised in a society where being male is seen as the normal and centred thing. The answer to solving that surely isn’t for me to never try slightly to redress the balance in my lessons, in case the boys feel disempowered by my attempts?!

Awild, what is not positive about the message "When you see other men oppressing women, challenge and stop them."

Surely the message "Be noble." is inherent in the admonition not to rape etc.?

I had a conversation with a man about this who was himself telling off other men who were complaining that poor men being so confused by #metoo and what it meant for their behaviour.

We both agreed that it was quite simple - there isn't and never has been an assumption that unless you can disregard questions of consent, you are condemned to life as a hermit who never speaks to women. He's quite a decent sort who understands that being a decent man is quite an aspirational and straightforward thing.

I've never read anything feminist that would stop this guy approaching the world the way he does. Because it's exactly what feminists ask for.

Rugby, soccer, cricket, athletics, many other sports. Martial arts in particular.

Business, politics, science.

Which of the above is lacking in positive male role models channeling competition and ambition?

I have sons, and so do many, many women. My sons don't feel the way you describe at all. They are intelligent and articulate young men who are capable of observing and critiquing society. It is not necessary to take all social and politically critique so personally. Recognising that there are privileged groups in society, and that you happen to be a member of that group, does not mean that you are personally being bashed.

I do think , in this country, a woman can do whatever she wants with regard to careers. There was a plea from the police force for more female officers on the news two days ago. There is positive discrimination when it comes to many career choices to try and encourage more women to embrace jobs that have been traditionally male. However, there are threads expressing horror at male care workers in nurseries and care homes.
Until most women and men choose to work equally to support the family financially, there will not be pressure on men to take equal responsibility for domestic chores and child care. Once there is equal distribution of responsibilities, it will be much easier for women to rise to the top jobs and spread the message of a more equal society.

I struggle with the idea that a woman might be " presented with feminism".

On a plate like a cake, or with a bow? Or possible on one of those tiered thingies they serve high tea on? Does feminism come with clotted cream and jam? Do we force innocent men to make the tiny sandwiches because misandry?

Bunbury is familiar with the theory of the red pill, but tends to get a bit skeptical when people claim to have consumed the entire color spectrum of Smarties and somehow (totally coincidentally you understand) ended right back at "women are responsible for men's behavior"

Indeed she does.

Then there is bullying heat well face for not being ‘manly’ enough - not being good enough at sports, liking reading, being caring and kind to animals

Oh come on- that really is a bit of an exaggeration.

I'm finding myself opposing 2 sets of what seem to me extreme examples on here.

These are (1) the OP's boys need to be given something noble live for and some pride in themselves would be a start and her bizarre idea that telling a boy child not to do something bad is reinforcing negativity and (2) Nona's view of her son as some charmed knight whose mission is rescuing women.

In fact the whole push for encouraging men to take parental leave.

jelly frizz - give me some examples of feminist messages to boys that aren't based around telling them what not to do.

The whole papoose thing - men can be nurturing and caring parents.

Bunbury is familiar with the theory of the red pill, but tends to get a bit skeptical when people claim to have consumed the entire color spectrum of Smarties and somehow (totally coincidentally you understand) ended right back at "women are responsible for men's behavior".

I struggle with the idea that a woman might be " presented with feminism".

Feminism is about, first of all about just being a woman; and living life in a female body/ experiencing life in that female body - with all that entails; also then being related to, treated in certain ways on account of that. The feminism bit is the articulation of that experience, and then the challenging of some of those experiences.

Simple!

God, how many typos in that last post!

By giving boys something noble live for and some pride in themselves would be a start.

The irony is that this is exactly what feminism attempts to do for and with girls and women. The overwhelming irony is that the boys and men get this in spades and anyone who suggests otherwise is either being very, very sly indeed (Bunbury postulates that those seeking to centre men within feminism are not and have never been feminists at all, since feminism is by, for and about women) or doesn't live on the same planet, let alone the same society, as the rest of us.