Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427500-Genuine-question-not-goady-I-promise-I-am-GC-myself-How-do-we-safeguard-boys-generally-age-8-in-changing-rooms-and-toilets

BertrandRussell

I hope the link works. It's a bit of a way in.

I did see an ad recently, in Vogue I think. It was a little girl wearing a t-shirt saying 'The future is female.' I did feel a pang when I looked at my DS. I've never seen a 'Boy Power' equivalent.

Everyday is Boy Power. Fashion magazines are a massive sign of Boy Power. They sell shit to women for problems that they didn't know that they have like having lines or the wrong cut jeans for the season. Do you think men are going round paranoid about half the shit women are worried about like getting older which is an inevitability of life?

I've seen kids T-shirts with positive messages about being a brother/nephew/Dad/son (as well as the female equivalent) This was the first thing that popped up on Google

"Blimey-has anyone actually said that?

Yep. They absolutely did."

Can you link to the thread, please?

So, the OP who thinks we are doing feminism wrong also thinks violence between children is OK.

Of course they do.

Thanks for the feminismsplaining.

Blimey-has anyone actually said that?

Yep. They absolutely did.

NonaGrey

I'm not saying that you aren't. All I can go on are your posts and the way that it comes across is as celebrating the very male stereotypes that your son demonstrates, even to the extent that you describe your husband as an alpha male.

What on earth even is that?

There seems to be a view on what a man is. Do we have a view on what a woman is?

Pretty sure the freeze response is common to most mammals at least. Did evil feminists teach gazelles to freeze when they spot lions in the grass too?

(It was me, I brainwashed the gazelles.)

Because why do something yourself when you can pester some woman into doing it for you?

Feminists also caused earthquakes and hurricanes (by focusing too much on girls and not enough on figuring out a way to prevent tectonic plates from shifting and wind from existing).

Maybe I'm stereotyping

Presented without comment.

I'm failing to understand why these things are so because of feminist messaging, positive or negative.

Because why do something yourself when you can pester some woman into doing it for you?

Feminists also caused earthquakes and hurricanes (by focusing too much on girls and not enough on figuring out a way to prevent tectonic plates from shifting and wind from existing).

"Certainly the poster espousing that 6 year old boys should use the gents toilet alone in order to experience the fear that girls and women experience is a prolific FWR board poster."

Blimey-has anyone actually said that?

No-one teaches this reaction and it is very normal. To say it is taught indicates that it is a choice. In feminism circles, freezing is most often talked about as a reaction to rape. For years and in many countires rape was only rape if the victim fought back. Therefore any adult or child who reacted by freezing was never going to get anywhere.

The idea that this is taught is incorrect > it is one of a range of standard animal responses to threat.

This. Seriously ignorant. It's not something you can control as an "appropriate" response. You can't fucking move.

kenandbarbie

Are children exposed to those though? Maybe I'm stereotyping but I'm not sure that many boys see paintings by Picasso in their day to day lives. Same really as programmes like Casualty and Holby City - it's a start but they aren't really aimed at children are they?

What they will be seeing are cartoons, films, children's tv. Are the same role models seen in them? (my children are adults now so I'm very out of touch with kids tv).

Ime boys aren't encouraged particularly to be nurses or primary school teachers and the like. It is changing I guess but now way is it there yet.

How will men learn to do it differently if they are never brought up to be different because we are waiting for men to do it differently?

I’m a bit confused Weetabix because that’s exactly what I’m trying to do with my son but you don’t seem to approve?

Or I might wonder why they hadn't been brought up with more positive view about men and women so that they could be good male models I might as, you know men and women.

Male models? Well, I suppose that is a profession that super conservative people might object to a man going into what with the standing around being photographed in one's pants and all, but I can't say that I've ever known a feminist who'd care...

Don't you think that it is more meaningful for boys to hear about positive masculinity from other males? I'm a single parent to teens and I'm very conscious of the fact that sometimes the power of what I say would be much more magnified if I was male.

Feminists can't be anti-patriarchy but on the other hand try to tell men what to do. They can point out how the system and men can improve the lives of women but they can't force men to change. Most men don't see the need to change. They may see sexism but don't feel strongly enough to stand up and do something about it.

I did see an ad recently, in Vogue I think. It was a little girl wearing a t-shirt saying 'The future is female.' I did feel a pang when I looked at my DS. I've never seen a 'Boy Power' equivalent.

But that's OK because
Most of the people in responsible jobs that small boys see are men.
Ditto famous sports people.
Ditto politicians.
I could go on.
So there's no need.

I am at a loss with this one. I'm seeing complaints about the lack of male role models. I'm seeing complaints about boys not being encouraged to do ballet or wear sparkly shirts by society.

I'm failing to understand why these things are so because of feminist messaging, positive or negative.

I don't think that your point, OP, is without merit, and I agree that men need exhortation to be decent as much as girls need exhortation not to be held back.

I just don't agree that the lack of those things in society is something which can be laid at feminism's door.

Aren’t the positive male role models the media, the newsreaders, the football, the male stars reapected for what they do, not how they look? In this world, men do the cool stuff (space, exploring, running businesses, inventing stuff) - which boys see all day long. Women are - largely - there to be looked at and to do the looking after - which is what boys see all day long. Boys can see plenty of positivity. Less so for girls.

Just trying to read through and wanted to flag this in case it affected anyone

"Don't teach young people that freezing is an appropriate response to aggression."

No-one is teaching young people to "freeze" if someone attacks them.
Freezing is a normal psychological response to threats.
Fight or flight were the first (well known) responses, freeze and faun (terrible name but they needed an "f" word I suppose!) have been added for a long time now.
Freeze speaks for itslef and faun is when the reaction is to try and make super-nice and comply to try and reduce the threat.

Freeze is seen in mammals all the time - and other animals too. "Rabbit in the headlights" is a common phrase for a reason.

I have an example where I was on the wrong end of an armed robbery in the shop I was working. "Freeze" was the reaction of the people (teenagers) working behind the counter. If you don't move maybe the predator will move on. It's a very basic animal reaction. It was to the extent that when the man (sorry OP it was a man with the sawn off doublt barrelled shotgun) asked my colleague a question he literally couldn't speak, he just sort of stared at him dumbly.

No-one teaches this reaction and it is very normal. To say it is taught indicates that it is a choice. In feminism circles, freezing is most often talked about as a reaction to rape. For years and in many countires rape was only rape if the victim fought back. Therefore any adult or child who reacted by freezing was never going to get anywhere.

The idea that this is taught is incorrect > it is one of a range of standard animal responses to threat.

I wanted to write this in case anyone reading was taken aback and maybe reliving some experiences.

Those saying that men are responsible for providing good role models for boys do you also think that dads have no part to play in being good role models for their daughters?

Re.: you are quite right. Now where are the male role models showing boys that liking dancing, painting, nursing, being a primary school teacher etc are all equally applicable to boys?

See: Ballet, Picasso, banksie, computer games designers, Damien hirst, most other notable artists throughout history, strictly come dancing, holby city, casualty, actual nurses and primary school teachers who are men.

Perhaps it's just me, but given that women are not able to be male role models if I wondered why there were no male role models in a given field I might ask, you know, men.

Or I might wonder why they hadn't been brought up with more positive view about men and women so that they could be good male models I might as, you know men and women.

I have never met a feminist who thinks boys and men should be bound by traditional stereotypes

I see that view reflected a lot on this board. Maybe they aren't actually feminists but they are frequent posters praised repeatedly so I've concluded that they are feminists. Maybe the truth is they aren't.

Certainly the poster espousing that 6 year old boys should use the gents toilet alone in order to experience the fear that girls and women experience is a prolific FWR board poster.

Perhaps it's just me, but given that women are not able to be male role models if I wondered why there were no male role models in a given field I might ask, you know, men.

Silly of me, I know. Bunbury would be so disappointed.