Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

I don't "explain" things to people who've already decided that understanding would be politically inconvenient. I'm far too busy brainwashing my gazelles into freezing when they spot a predator.

It's amazing how much those rules come up, isn't it Pencils?

"How do you get society to throw out stereotypes?"
A good start would be by not mocking feminists when we draw attention to them. The usual mums-net response is "haven't you got anything important to worry about?" or "people are just looking for things to be offended by".

1: Women are responsible for what men do.

5: Feminism must be useful to men or it is worthless.

10: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

One of the things that the trans debate on twitter keeps throwing up, is how many ordinary, decent men simply don't have a clue about the way women are constantly oriented when out in public to be on guard against predatory males. Over and over, we hear about men who are shocked to discover this.

Now, we could just say that these men have a responsibility to pro-actively investigate women's issues and problems and find this stuff out for themselves (while at the same time arguing that men should stay out of feminist discussions).

Alternatively, we could discuss how best to leverage the limited power we have, and what are the best strategies for effectively getting that message across. The trans issue could be (and to some extent already is) an excellent opportunity for educating men about this.

I believe that changing social attitudes will be painfully slow work, but I also think it is possible. And also necessary: I suspect we are approaching the end of what legislation and pressure groups can do.

Nona said:

How do you get society to throw out stereotypes? You can effect change over time by good people doing the right thing.

I agree with that. And not just by "doing" the right thing, but by discussing and teaching and persuading other people to change their views of what the right thing is. That's why it's important for people who have power or influence to use it the right way - even if we think that the reasons why they have that power are unfair or due to stereotypes.

No. We do not have to "agree to disagree" You are completely wrong, and misrepresenting the poster concerned.

BertrandRussell

Well we shall have to agree to disagree. Many other posters read it exactly as I did.

Who in their right mind thinks it's ok for 6 year old boys to have to go into the toilet on their own or wait outside the ladies on their own while their mum goes in? What purpose does that serve and why mention at all then the fact that girls have always had to be aware of the danger of some men so boys should be aware too?

If I've so misunderstood explain it to me from a more positive viewpoint.

There was no suggestion at all that 6 year old boys should go to the men's loo "in order to experience the fear" that girls and women do. The discussion was about why it is always girls who have to modify their behaviour to accommodate the safety and comfort of boys, and suggesting a way that the roles could be reversed. You are completely misrepresenting the poster concerned.

I’ve not seen these messages about men from feminists. I am a feminist. I have a DD and a DS, and bring them up to be respectful and to see gender stereotypes for what they are.
I can’t see any men being told to stand aside either.
I honestly don’t get your post. The ‘man hating’ accusation has been levelled at feminists for ages. Getting sick of the cliche.

I'm just wondering though that if your son was not tall, sporty, good looking and popular whether he would still behave in the way that he does ie intervene on another's behalf? It feels like the attributes that you say you value are only really possible because he also possesses the more stereotypical male attributes that society values.

What I said was that it’s easier for him Weetabix. That was in fact my point.

And if he throws out stereotypes by being kind to and friends with children with other less valued attributes that helps others see their value too.

How do you get society to throw out stereotypes?

You can effect change over time by good people doing the right thing.

By men treating women equally and valuing their contribution to society.

By white people treating minorities equally and valuing their contribution to society.

By heterosexual people treating homosexual people equally and valuing their contribution to society

Etc etc

kesstrel

Hear hear.

BertrandRussell

Not solely that post. That was the first one to suggest that 6 yrs old should be the cut off for boys going into the ladies. It was the comments after that too that re iterated that girls have had to face the threat of male violence and adjust their behaviour accordingly so why shouldn't boys. This coming from the poster who says 6 yr old boys should go into the gents on their own.

I don't think I'm misrepresenting the inference there and nor did other posters.

These are the views of boys that I object to.

It seems to me this discussion is partly about "socialisation" - what it is and how it can best be used to improve things for women, and different aspects of socialisation are getting blurred together in a way that isn't helpful.

People are talking about boys getting the idea they are superior through socialisation about what is "normal", meaning from what they see and hear in the culture around them. But another, different aspect of socialisation is moral: both explicit teaching and morally-oriented discussions about what is the right way to behave, in moral terms.

It seems to me that this second form of socialisation, when applied to boys, absolutely ought to be a valid concern of feminists, and especially of mothers who are feminists. Saying that because 'men should sort themselves out' there we should be discussing here, or that women who want to discuss this topic, are 'centering' males, makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

I follow Michael Conroy and Jack Appleby on Twitter, and they are organising and talking about masculinity and how it could change. I think women and feminists absolutely have a stake in that project, and if some of us want to discuss it, why shouldn't we?

Weetabixabdshreddies- if you are referring to the post about a 6 year old going into the men's loo with a panic whistle, you have either completely misunderstood or are completely misrepresenting. One or the other.

NonaGrey

I'm just wondering though that if your son was not tall, sporty, good looking and popular whether he would still behave in the way that he does ie intervene on another's behalf? It feels like the attributes that you say you value are only really possible because he also possesses the more stereotypical male attributes that society values.

Women are valued (wrongly) for their looks. I'm sure that traditionally beautiful women who are also highly intelligent and skilled will succeed more than an equally highly skilled intelligent woman who just doesn't conform with how society thinks a woman should look.

Surely to abolish stereotypes we have to throw them all out. Not value the traditional ones and just add in a few other desirable traits and then declare job done?

But my point is that it’s feminists that are more likely to be challenging the stereotypes in daily life. It doesn’t have to be a coordinated campaign to be effective.

I’d wager that those showing that life doesn’t have to be lived constrained by other people’s expectations are most likely to be feminists. I don’t think it’s fair to blame feminists for not campaigning for pro-boys messages when they’re the ones likely to be doing the most in the first place.

Thank you kesstral

way that it comes across is as celebrating the very male stereotypes that your son demonstrates, even to the extent that you describe your husband as an alpha male.

So, I’m “celebrating” my son as he is.

It just so happens that his physical characteristics are those valued by current society.

I’m aware, as is he, that he didn’t earn them, they are just the result of genetics.

I’m proud that he’s kind, compassionate and hardworking.

The entire point of my posts are that it’s easier for my DS, who does happen to fulfil prized societal stereotypes, to challenge unhealthy societal norms.

Scipio mentioned her son, who sounds lovely, has encountered bullying for not fulfilling those societal norms of “manliness”.

But my son would be most likely be friends with hers, because Scipio’s DS is nice and kind and bookish.

He certainly wouldn’t allow anyone else to bully him.

We haven’t taught DS to value sporting ability above all (even though he’s very sporty).

We havent taught DS to value stereotypical looks above all.

We haven’t taught him to only value people just like him.

And you are right I did refer to DH as an “Alpha male” but the context was a reply to the OP challenging the idea that all feminists want to quash stereotypically male characteristics.

It’s a problematic term and I used it deliberately.

Objectively DH is an “alpha male” by societies standards. If I’m happily married to a man society thinks in an alpha male then I can’t “hate” masculine characteristics and be desperate to quash then in boys.

But the opposite isn’t true either. Just because I love my DH doesn’t mean I don’t see great value in all sorts of other men who have other characteristics.

My wonderful Dad is small and slim and bookish. He’s not sporty in the least. These days he’d have been called a geek. I adore him. If DS grows up to be just like like DGD that would be fine with me.

Florahiggins

I think that your example is exactly what some of us on here are arguing for. Show boys and girls a different way of doing things. Challenge all stereotypes. Show girls that there is nothing wrong with following more traditionally male pursuits and equally show boys that of course they can do whatever they want too.
Your family sounds like a perfect example of how to ignore gender stereotypes but in a positive rather than negative way.

I'm not saying that you aren't. All I can go on are your posts and the way that it comes across is as celebrating the very male stereotypes that your son demonstrates, even to the extent that you describe your husband as an alpha male. What on earth even is that?

I was very struck by the way Nona was talking about her son having power. It seems to me that she was describing a social phenomenon accurately, rather than celebrating it. Like it or not, I think we do know what an 'alpha male' is - it's a male who has power, more power than others. Regardless of whether his characteristics are "male stereotypes", he is a person who has them. Are we supposed to ignore that?

An accurate description of current social reality is not necessarily an endorsement of that reality. I don't think we get anywhere by criticising people for how they describe that reality, and preferring language to reflect instead what we would like to be the case. That's how transactivists think, and one of the things we criticise them for. If you want to change social reality, you need to first identify what it is.

What would you have preferred Nona to say about her son and his circumstances?

Do you think that a woman who behaved like Gordon Ramsay or Simon Cowell would be allowed on TV never mind well-liked and respected?

I'm not sure that either of those is particularly well- liked or respected.

And what behaviours are you referring to when wondering if women behaving in the same way are allowed on tv?

Do you think it’s feminists who are the ones saying to boys that they can’t enjoy art, music, ballet, caring for animals, being kind etc?

Or is it in fact more likely that they’re the ones more likely to challenge stereotypes, as they’re opposed to them? I’m not sure what else you’re wanting of feminists given that they’re already the ones most likely to be countering societal expectations that constrain people.

I have two boys that I’m hopefully raising to question stereotypes and feel at ease with all aspects of themselves, whilst appreciating that the system is stacked against women. Their Dad is a stay at home parent who has an art degree and who used to attend the royal ballet school. I run a children’s nursery where I employ two men. I try and challenge stereotypes at work and encourage the children to feel comfortable playing with whoever and whatever they want, and speak regularly to staff about being aware of how their expectations of children might be coloured by sex stereotypes they hold. Is this enough?

My feminism doesn’t centre boys and men but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t help them, and it seems to me that you’re claiming it actually oppresses them. Just because I campaign for girls and women to be safe and free to be whoever they want to be doesn’t mean I’m harming boys and men.

Do you think that a woman who behaved like Gordon Ramsay or Simon Cowell would be allowed on TV never mind well-liked and respected? Will powerful female politicians ever get more column inches for their actions than fashion?

I did see an ad recently, in Vogue I think. It was a little girl wearing a t-shirt saying 'The future is female.' I did feel a pang when I looked at my DS. I've never seen a 'Boy Power' equivalent.

Seriously?

Boys don’t need a “the future is male” t shirt to know that men run the world. They see it all the time. Have you seen the secret life of 4 / 5 year olds? By that age, most boys already believe that boys are the clever, strong ones and girls are the silly weak ones. Boys see male characters centred in the vast majority of children’s literature and TV - in fairness things like CBeebies are pushing that envelope which is a relief but we are a long way from equal representation.

As for kids not often seeing Picasso works, perhaps not. But when they are older and they can name a few artists, which sex are they likely to be? Or chefs? Even in more creative fields, it’s often men who are the famous public faces / names of those fields.