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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

385 replies

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 03:11

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

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AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 07:11

TheMyth - I don't think it's laziness, it probably more thoughlessness or lack or vision.

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AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 07:07

Contessa - street gangs, boys stabbing each other. The prison population. You all know those stats. Those men and boys weren't indoctrinated that they could be anything they wanted to be, were they. They were told that they were a shit stain and would always be one.

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TheMythOfFingerprints · 24/11/2018 07:05

Gosh yes op, those bloody feminists always trying to give females a strong sense of self. It's just laziness that they don't do the same for men.
I mean, it's almost as if feminism is for females only or something.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 07:03

pancaketosser tosser - 100%, agreed how about feminists say nice things to boys and everyone stop using girls as an insult as well. Both can happen, right?

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pancaketosser · 24/11/2018 06:58

There may not be an equivalent of 'girl power', but there's also not an equivalent of 'run/throw/cry like a girl' either.

It's alright saying that feminists need to say nice things to boys, but men need to stop calling boys girls as an insult too. Or is it mean of me to say that?

ContessaHallelujahSparklehorse · 24/11/2018 06:57

I had this conversation with DH a while back; he commented that feminism has done a good job of teaching girls that they can be/do anything, but that boys need to be taught the same. He looked at me expectantly. I asked him if he thought that was feminism's job and he said yes. I asked him why and he looked perplexed at the question Hmm

Look, I tell my boys that they can be anything they like in the world and that there are a lot of bad people out there who do bad things and who are RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. I'm hoping that they will a) have the courage to be what they want and b) try to avoid doing bad things. I'm certainly not going to stop talking about the impacts of those bad things on women.

TellMeDinosaurFacts · 24/11/2018 06:55

Btw my autocorrect put all those capitals on ‘male’!

ZenNudist · 24/11/2018 06:54

@Her0utdoors, exactly, its like that song: "who runs the world? GIRLS".... er no they dont.

TellMeDinosaurFacts · 24/11/2018 06:53

This has made me think about the message my 6yo and 2yo get about masculinity from the media. The children’s tv they watch has an overwhelming preponderance of Male characters as leaders/explorers/rescuers, and the ratio of Male/female characters is still heavily dominated by the Male (shows like Octonauts and Go Jetters have 5/2 and 4/1 male/female leads respectively). These shows thus represent several different positive ways to be male, and a far more limited range of femininity.
I think the reason why there is this explicit messaging for girls around ‘girl power’ is that this balance still dominates so much of our culture. And I don’t at all agree that it’s not out there for boys too- there’s a lot of equivalent clothing and merchandise targeted at boys linked to being heroic/adventurous/intelligent etc.
Having said that, better representation of masculinity as gentle, caring, artistic is badly needed (though that does come through in some kids shows).

ZenNudist · 24/11/2018 06:44

OP i dont know if you're male or female but this hand wringing "what about the poor menz" attitude is not helpful to an equality agenda. I see a lot of male rights advancements in the name of equality whilst female rights currently being trampled (e.g. trans agenda).

@gingerpusscat Girl power was a thing when I was a child (didn't the spice girls invent it?). Its not done much to smash the glass ceiling in mine or any other industry i know.

In fact i saw my friend's dd singing little mix ive got the power and i thought how girl power has come around again and its still the power to dress sexily and sleep around. Would be nice if girl power was linked to leadership and real authority, but that wouldn't make a good pop song and sell well.

Her0utdoors · 24/11/2018 06:43

Exactly GCAcademic, I saw a t-shirt with a similar slogan in M&S, don't gaslight my daughter, girls will never take over the world as it proclaimed.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 06:40

Yes and thankfully in large part to feminism the media has started to do something about adding positive female role models too.

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Labradoodliedoodoo · 24/11/2018 06:39

I need factual examples of the negative educational role models for boys

Labradoodliedoodoo · 24/11/2018 06:35

I have two sons. Im 100% sure they don’t get the message that men are violent/rapists/abusers/toxic/untrustworthy. At some point they will find out that jails mostly contain men but won’t relate to these men because he’s a nice boy and has plenty of nice male role models who are community minded/caring/trustworthy/considerate. In the media men are also superhero’s, life savers, fire fighters, uphold law and order, make pets better, explorers, positive risk takers and sporty.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 06:31

Don't think that kids don't pick up on things. They pick up more than we think.

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AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 06:30

ZenNudist - I'm talking about the role of feminism in messaging to boys. You don't think it has one?

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ZenNudist · 24/11/2018 06:30

Lets not forget that the negative message about abusive and violent men is largely confined to news channels so children not really as exposed as adults. Same news channels that sensationalise female crimes because its less usual.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 06:26

Coyoacan - so you think feminism should not seek to give a positive message to boys?

You would abandon the task of presenting positive messages to the media? Look where that has got us.

I think feminism has to take this on or it will fail.

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GCAcademic · 24/11/2018 06:26

I did see an ad recently, in Vogue I think. It was a little girl wearing a t-shirt saying 'The future is female.' I did feel a pang when I looked at my DS. I've never seen a 'Boy Power' equivalent

Rest assured, the future will continue to be male. Patriarchy is not going anywhere, if anything it’s aggressively reasserting itself at the moment.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 06:23

Totally agreed and feminism needs to equally passionate about giving positive message for boys to, or all the efforts will be lost.

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Coyoacan · 24/11/2018 06:21

I love men, personally, but building a positive form of masculinity would be a particular concern for men, accompanied by women who have sons and teachers, rather than the job of feminism.

There are in fact lots of positive images of men in the media

ZenNudist · 24/11/2018 06:19

You must be walking around with your eyes shut. Positive male paradigms abound. Largely male leaders of government and business. The example in home lives where it is more common for women rather than men to care for children and dependants, and dads to be the main earner, the economic imbalance that brings. Prevalence of women nurses & male doctors.

Our society says one thing and does another . Tells kids (not just girls) 'you can be anything you want' to counteract the harsh reality. By the time today's children get round to having children the same imbalance will show itself. I hope the tide is turning.

gingerpusscat · 24/11/2018 06:16

I did see an ad recently, in Vogue I think. It was a little girl wearing a t-shirt saying 'The future is female.' I did feel a pang when I looked at my DS. I've never seen a 'Boy Power' equivalent. They even had an "International Day of the Girl' theme on Play School here recently. I'm not sure what the intention of that is, given the intended audience is 2 - 5 year old Australian children.

daisychain01 · 24/11/2018 06:13

Male privilege has existed for millennia, it's about time the pendulum started to swing in a different direction.

Thing is, dont spend too much time on social media, that's where the negative messages will be exaggerated.

AWildThoughAppeared · 24/11/2018 05:31

Thje problem is not in pointing out the problems of male abuse of women.

It's about the lack of any positivity about men.

In short:

The message feminism has for girls - "you are amazing and you can be anything you want to be #ThisGirlCan. Just watch out for those evil men."

The message feminism has for boys - "you are sick and disgusting, but if you don't abuse or oppress women, you will be tolerated #YesAllWomen"

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