Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

OP I totally agree! Could not have said it better myself- I’m fed up to the back teeth of the hypocrisy of feminism it is supposed to be about the equality and empowerment of women but the suppression and degradation of men! I see it ALL the time ‘we are better then men- men are wrong and terrible’ is a blanket message.

This morning I read a thread where OP openly admitted to coming off her pill and lying to ‘trap’ her young fiancé into having a child with her and now being bitter that he left her because he couldn’t trust her!! 😮 (not even a subtle admission- she laid out exactly how she’s lied and deceived and oclrchestrated the whole thing) and people were STILL taking her side, saying things like ‘why wasn’t he wearing a condom’!!! OMG 😠
Apparently nobody should ever trust anybody else...your husband of 15 years should be wearing a Condom incase you’re lying to him- all men should always assume women are lying to them as any reprocussions of not doing is the males fault! 😂🙈 WTF is the world coming to?

The boys in gangs or who grow up and go to prison because they have low self esteem or expectations (at least I'm assuming that's what you are getting at with this post) don't feel that way because they are male but more likely because they are poor or disadvantaged in other ways. All boys don't have the same trajectory or background. The world has many possibilities if you are a white well educated boy from a wealthy/ middle class background.

I don't think either of my children have particularly absorbed any of the messages you've set out in your OP. Although dd and the majority of her female friends have been sexually harassed (generally on a number of occasions) or assaulted (some very seriously). Nothing even vaguely similar has happened to ds. So forgive me for thinking the girls need centering and the boys are generally really fairly OK.

Awild, I am sure Bert can answer for herself but I have just mentioned ways in which feminism supports boys.

Larry I agree with both your points! I don't much care for the various agendas the schools push and I ask my boys to question the rhetoric - and frequently start discussions with "well that's not true...".

Crypto that looks really good - Thank you for the link!

I made too broad and assumptive a statement there, my apologies. Should say, not run solely by women.

I don't see why it's women's job to educate men in how not to participate in toxic masculinity.
There are these groups out there, e.g.
www.goodladworkshop.com/about/
Which are not run by feminists.

You all know those stats. Those men and boys weren't indoctrinated that they could be anything they wanted to be, were they.

How do you know that?

They were told that they were a shit stain and would always be one.

Again, how do you know that?

"And I realise this is a lame answer."

Yes, it is rather-considering you feel strongly enough about it to start a thread.

Feminists on here and elsewhere talk frequently about the damage enforced gender roles are doing to men. We talk constantly about it. Perhaps you have missed it. One of the most important things I have done is talk to my sons about their future relationships with women. Do you think that only benefits women.

There are plenty of things that men could do today that would make the world a better place for both men and women. The trouble is that mostly they don't want to-because it would mean giving up stuff they like and (sorry) "checking their privilege"

Ah, that's nice for you dear. Fear not, I'm sure feminism will get on fine without you.

Two separate issues.

Feminism - your flavour of (there are a variety) is not the same as mine.

Boys. I am a mother to two. It is MY job to educate and raise them - it is not the job of the feminist movement.

International men's day was last week.

The current message is not positive for boys or girls.

There is an entirely mixed message between ‘this girl can’ and the idea that in any bad relationship the powerless girl/woman has been somehow ‘groomed’ (a word so stretched that it has ceased to have any meaning) to behave passively and has lost all self determination.

What teenage boys take from it is they a/ ‘can’t’ and b/ are in some way toxic. Teenage girls ( not all of whom actually ‘can’) feel failures for not living up to the strong image that they are always told to aspire to.

We have gone backwards from the 80s and 90s when the message was that men and women were an equally important mix of the good, the bad and the competent and incompetent. It felt much more nuanced.

Could you give some examples of the sort of thing you mean, OP? I am certainly very conscious as the mother of a boy tht I am bringing up part of the next generation of men-and have had some very interesting discussions both on here and in RL about it.

Feminism can liberate men from performing toxic masculinity if men decide they want to stop performing toxic masculinity.

Call me cynical - an account opened today, posting at around the same time that other in bad faith accounts have previously posted, berating women for being horrible to poor menz and not rescuing them or centring them.

How about taking that message to a men's forum and asking them what they can do to sort out the problems of their making?

Contessa - street gangs, boys stabbing each other. The prison population. You all know those stats. Those men and boys weren't indoctrinated that they could be anything they wanted to be, were they. They were told that they were a shit stain and would always be one.

And that’s all the fault of feminists, is it, all that male violence? I’m not sure you’re posting in good faith, tbh.

OP - could you give some examples of the sort of thing you mean?

OP I think you may have made a mistake posting this on the feminism board. It seems people are willfully misunderstanding you. For what it's worth I actually agree with you to an extent. I don't think there's any issue with highlighting the damage caused by male violence, but I agree that it's hard for boys to know what their 'role' should be. It's hard for girls too but I think it's becoming easier all the time with feminist issues becoming more talked about in mainstream media etc. Meanwhile for boys it's getting more difficult as they're still really bound by traditional male stereotypes (boys dont cry, boys are tough and strong, boys like fighting and rough play etc) but they're also increasingly encouraged to be sensitive and caring and gentle as well. I think it's hard to know what society expects 'masculinity' to be now.

Obviously ideally everyone would just be who they are without having to perform a gender role, but in reality we aren't there yet and our children do pick up ideas of how they should behave based on their gender , no matter how their families raise them or how much we try to protect them from it.