Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk

And.. ( meant to add this, and didn't) his criticism of our use of the term "transsexual" may be telling. The term " transsexual " is becoming MORE used, not less, and by professionals in the field, because of the need to recognise that different " trans" groups have very different needs and characteristics. Perhaps, Prof Whittle, who has done much for the transgender world, and is not in good health, is not in touch with current "currents" in this complicated ocean?

This happened back in May Kay one would hope that this had been discussed with him or within the transgender community by now.

There was a lot of discussion about the letter and the response here at the time.

S.W is a sharp chap, and I can't see why he characterises our objections as he does. because what he says of our intentions is not true, as I understand it. Could it be that he misunderstands our objections, and assumes that we are coming from somewhere less well informed and more reactionary than is the case?

Re Stephen Whittle's perspective on those in the transgender community who oppose self id, he responded to the group of transsexuals who wrote a letter in the Guardian critical of the process:
May 2018
whittlings.blogspot.co.uk

(extract)
"Why on earth then would the Guardian choose to publish a reactionary and inflammatory letter, under this heading, when in fact the letter's authors want to take away core human rights that the trans community won in 2002 at the European Court of Human Rights.
The proposal suggested in the letter, which was written by a a tiny group of 'transsexual' women (their word, not mine) who support an even tinier minority of feminist women, would roll back key elements of the Gender Recognition Act 2004. "

link to the letter:
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights

There's increasing amounts to raise with MPs though, not least the points raised by Stella O'Malley's program, the articles in the Mail on Sunday by the teacher who has whistleblown and Bob Withers (psychotherapist)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3426753-Tomorrows-Mail-on-Sunday-Front-Page
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6402003/Well-look-rush-change-childrens-sex-one-darkest-chapters-medicine.html

Lisa Muggeridge for example described a positive meeting with MP this week.

ROwantrees;
I've done a fair bit of that. Results are there none. :-)

A question was asked earlier about why the TS against Self ID crew were not getting in touch with MPs, etc. I feel sure many of us are. I have been in touch with David Davis's office twice, before the recent debate. Not the only one, I'm sure.

David Davies seems unique amongst MPs of having not only a clear understanding of both the dangers to safeguarding and women's rights and actively raising the issues.

The other MPs who have been unto now briefed and persuaded by TRA individuals and organisations and spoke at the debate would be the ones I would suggest 'T S against self id crew' contact as well as local MPs.

There seems more to be gained there, especially those MPs who are reluctant and resistant to listen to women who are not trans.

Not sure either of them are particularly influential out there presently but I certainly got the impression from what Stephen Whittle posted when he was on here earlier this year that we would disagree over self ID. I hope respectfully.

Lass you might be interested in watching this CBBC program which features Stephen Whittle. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

It was screened in 2014 and this version has had 66,998 views

'"I Am Leo"

A question was asked earlier about why the TS against Self ID crew were not getting in touch with MPs, etc. I feel sure many of us are. I have been in touch with David Davis's office twice, before the recent debate. Not the only one, I'm sure.

And there is a group of like minded people, of whom I am one, who have blogged against all this. But we are a small number, we "post op/ legally transitioned/ been there, done it"group.

I think that " progressive " people like to be seen as progressive, without necessarily understanding the issues all that much. I have found that tolerant, broad minded, well educated people tend to assume that us raddled old-style transsexual people will be all for it. Till now, perhaps.

It came as a surprise to such as my Labour Women's Group that we are saying " hold hard a minute, not happy, lets think this through".

We are just not having all this, basically.

Yes. Why don't we mumsnetters create an international forum to set out gender critical best practices and we can get representatives around the world to sign up?... Judging by the 24 hour nature of MN that wouldn't be too hard to arrange and inform the UN, the EU, the UK govt and every major institution what they are and what they must sign up to.

If the TAs can have that clout, why not us?

How judges whatever league table DB was upset at us slipping to 4th on? And what is the criteria?

It's weird, how did the Yogykarta Principles get to be a thing? They were put together by a tiny group of people on a niche cause, and haven't been adopted by the UN or anything, yet countries are rushing to sign up to them

Not sure either of them are particularly influential out there presently

Stephen Whittle certainly is influential. Whittle took part in the drafting of the original Yogyakarta Principles. Whenever you see governments and others referring to 'International best practices' regarding transgender rights, this is what they are referring to.

The Scottish Government actually spelt this out in their consultation document.

3.10. The view of the Scottish Government is that the 2004 Act requirements are unnecessarily intrusive and do not reflect the best practice now embodied in the Yogyakarta Principles and Resolution 2048.

I agree with you ROwantrees. This is the kind of thing we have to get people to do. Talk to the right people.

Debbie's good article yesterday will have helped.

But we are very aware now. And deeply concerned. I hope the real threat to children will prove the step too far that will bring more out into the open and speak up

I hope so.
I would hope that those MPs who spoke against David Davies in the recent debate so sure that they were representing vulnerable people who are transgender would listen to those who have your experience & insight.
MPs will meet with their constituents. They need to hear other perspectives. This seems to be much more effective than letters.

It is a cliche but I do believe in the idea that it takes a village to raise a child.

As always the real problem is that there are under 5000 of us and an estimated half a million transgender pressing for self ID.

We have never been out and loud as we have families who we have to think about given the threats we get from trans activism when speaking out.

So there is a major imbalance. But more and more transsexuals have been 'peak transing' in the past year and emerging to reclaim the term and say no to trans activism. We have likely been slow recognising what was going on - like many women were I think.

But we are very aware now. And deeply concerned. I hope the real threat to children will prove the step too far that will bring more out into the open and speak up.

Rowantrees, I know that Stephen Whittle and Christine Burns were influential (and both honoured by the Queen) for bringing about the GRA in 2004. Stephen Whittle is an equalities law professor. Press for Change in the late 90s probably was the first activism. But I am not sure what happened as it passed me by if it did until the GRA was under discussion and I followed the Hansard reports.

Not sure either of them are particularly influential out there presently but I certainly got the impression from what Stephen Whittle posted when he was on here earlier this year that we would disagree over self ID. I hope respectfully.

I do not know their views on children transitioning either, as I have not met them or seen them out there posting.

I am not suggesting that Kay or myself reflect all. Of course, we do not. And as you see even we do not agree 100%. But I do know we are far from alone on the transsexual side of things. Though most are scared to talk openly (hence that blog involving 14 of them saying as much).

Also - in reply to a comment earlier about contacting MPs - I have been told that what David Davies said in parliament the other day was partly informed in that way. You will note he was the only person to use that term in the debate. The government have fallen for the trans activist extermination of the term transsexual - which we feel has been deliberate appropriation - in much the same way that women, with justification, feel about the appropriation of the term woman by trans ideology.

Many holders of the GRC under the present rules also filled out the consultation in ways that I think most of you would likely not be too far away from supporting.

Some of the things I know we told the government are evident in the 131 page summary of the Scottish consultation released yesterday. As I recognise some of the highlighted remarks. Though, of course, we share those concerns with plenty of women who will have commented too.

But I agree that we need to mobilise around the aftermath of this excellent documentary which will have focused minds. And we need to make clear what we think. I am sure we will try.

Pink News twitter

NHS transgender services ‘at breaking point,’ experts warn
Nick Duffy 23rd November 2018, 2:12 PM
(extract)
NHS services for transgender people in the UK are near breaking point, experts have warned a parliamentary committee.

The UK Parliament’s Women and Equalities Committee today published submissions to an inquiry into LGBT healthcare, revealing the high level of concern about access to gender-related services.

The Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) warned that “specialised gender services is growing exponentially,” adding that “excessive waits result in acute stress, self-harm, suicidality and resort to self-medication.”

GIRES warned that failing to meet the demand would be a “grave mistake,” while LGBT+ charity Stonewall added: “It is vital that NHS England set out a clear plan to increase capacity and reduce waiting times to gender identity services.” (continues)
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/11/23/transgender-healthcare-uk-backlogs-nhs/

embedded Women & Equalities report:
www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/inquiry11/publications/

It is a recognised truth that better mental health services are neccessary for all, especially for children and young people.
The crisis amongst girls was also identified recently.

Those TRA individuals, charities and organisations have a responsibility to also consider how they have contributed to the emotional well being of those they claim to represent. Especially the most vulnerable.
Reckless use and abuse of suicide statistics will have had an impact. So too the misinformation and propaganda.

Here’s a little anecdote, I can’t stop thinking about it so I might as well share it:

DS (18) has just gone off to university. One of his new friends is a female born transman. DS has been brought up to not bat an eyelid at we affectionately call weirdos - we are a weirdo family and DS is the straight looking black sheep (see attached meme). DS also thinks the 72 Facebook genders are bullshit, hates the pronoun police and knows that human beings can not change sex (but being accepting of people’s quirks is important, and transpeople are people). He’s an aspie, and in him this manifests as being prone to saying the thing that other people are thinking (and not saying out of politeness).

He came home a week or two ago because he had a bad hangover and wanted his own bed. He tells me about his new friend L, and how he and L went off to the gents together and everyone stared at them but he ‘wasn’t bothered’.

So I said, ‘That’s cool, I’m glad I raised you to be open-minded... but what about the boys that ARE bothered?’

DS makes a ? face at me - so I carry on, ‘Don’t men and boys deserve spaces that offer privacy, away from women and girls? I don’t mean Old Boys Clubs, just places where you are naked, or partially naked, toilets, gym showers, what about saunas especially for gay men?’

DS looks a bit weirded out that his mum is talking to him about gay saunas but cautiously replies... ‘uhhhh, yeeessss’.

‘So is it fair that your friend L accesses these spaces, seeing as they have a female body, and not a male body?’

‘Well, no, but L IS gay, very gay. L talks about being gay all the time’

‘Help me out here, son, do you mean gay as in female bodied person attracted to other female bodied people? Because that’s what defines gayness, same-sex attraction.’

‘No, L fancies boys’

‘Well, that’s not being gay is it? A female body and a male body = boring old heterosexualality - like me and your DSD’

‘I suppose so. Anyway, L doesn’t even like other transpeople, L just didn’t want to be a woman. L said that to me, just like that, ‘I just didn’t want to grow up to be a woman’.

Anyway, since this exchange i’ve been lurking L’s instagram account. L has a quote from my son and a link to my son’s account in their bio (something you usually do to indicate a girlfriend/boyfriend). DS has a new casual girlfriend at uni who fits DS’s usual type, so the bio is deffo an unrequited action.

I’m really haunted by the idea that a smart, funny, heterosexual girl is so horrified at the thought of growing up to be a woman that they take on a gay male persona, despite being attracted to straight boys.
How has this happened?

Is there no way to be a butch, straight, woman anymore? I’m sure there was, or at least, the acceptable looks and behaviour for women used to be a much wider spectrum - my sister always had short hair in the 80s, for example. Wtf have we done to our girls?

Is there such a thing as a late-transitioning FtM, who isn’t attracted to women? I’m aware that there are some late-transitioning former-lesbians, but are there any/many straight ones? If not, why not?

Please can we have some proper studies? I don’t want transpeople to be researched out of existence, but surely we need some proper studies? Because this seems like a whole load of heart ache to me.

I watched the parliamentary debate on the GRA 'reforms' last week and it was shocking how many of the MPs from different parties have bought into all this trans are terribly oppressed and struggle so hard to get any rights and need to be given this that and the other.

No we aren't. Sorry and whilst not entirely a product of the young it is most obvious in the generation that have grown up with social media able to aim insults at anyone whilst behind a mask and it breeds a kind of invulnerability complex.

It has to be recognised the role that older people in the transgender community are playing. They are prominant and influential TRAs:

From the 2013 Guardian article linked previously,

Christine Burns:
"In the 90s, when she was chair of the Women's Supper Club of the local Conservative party association in Cheshire, she quietly joined Press for Change. Even then, the new activists dared not be openly trans. "The thing that held us back in the 1990s campaigning was that fear of being out," admits Burns. Eventually, she came out in 1995; she jokes that she realised she was more embarrassed to be a member of the Conservative party than openly transsexual.

Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues."

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

The LibDem Layla Moran who was one of the MPs clearly influenced by TRAs propaganda acknowledged the influence/help she had received from Helen Belcher (Trans Media Watch)

James Kirkup comment:
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/

lassupthebrew

Please don’t apologise for your long posts - your experience as an early transitioner, long before the days of social media, and your obvious concern for our current generation of gender questioning children makes you a valuable poster.

I don’t think late transitioners are able to see the potential problems as clearly as you can - their thoughts are too clouded with wistful what-might’ve-been. I don’t mean that as a criticism, it’s natural human behaviour in all sorts of circumstance, not just trans narratives, I just think it makes their opinions fairly useless!

Sorry for these long posts. But I feel really passionately on this because I am very fearful for the present generation of children being innocently swept up in this. We seem to be sleepwalking into a tragedy believing that we are helping

Lass you'll find the vast majority of women who post on FWR in full agreement with you.

The internet is what has driven children into the arms of the trans mantra. When we were growing up being trans you felt you were the only person in the world like this as there was no community, no clinics, no daily blizzard of media coverage and - most importantly - no You Tube transitioners telling others - look at me - it is easy - just make the change.

Its also important to recognise the role that prominant older people within the transgender community have played in influencing both the narrative and younger people.

Guardian 2013:
'Voices from the trans community: 'There will always be prejudice'
It's more than 50 years since the UK's first trans person was outed in the press. So how do members of the community think life has changed for them since?'
(extract)
"In 25 years, [James Barrett lead clinician at the Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic, the largest and oldest in the world] has seen trans people become "a networked bunch" – more so than other people, he thinks – thanks to the internet. [Paris] Lees, who also works for Trans Media Action, says social media is the "essential catalyst" for the transformation of trans people in society. "Society is in transition and we've woken up from the operation and there's no going back. We can't pretend that trans people don't exist any more," she says. "People have been taking the piss out of trans people for 60 years. The narrative on trans issues has been controlled by people who have no understanding of them. Social media is about us grabbing the narrative back and telling our own stories – this is our reality, this is what we go through and this is what matters to us. We're here, we're in your face, we definitely exist. That's the most important thing – realising we exist." (continues)
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Telegraph 2014:
'Facebook's 71 gender options come to UK users'
(extract)
"Facebook worked with UK groups Press for Change and Gendered Intelligence to add 21 new options to ensure the list best reflected the ways UK users may choose to describe themselves.

"Gender identities are complex and for many people, describing themselves as just a man or just a woman has always been inadequate," said Professor Stephen Whittle, vice-president at Press for Change. The European Court of Human Rights has upheld the right to develop our gender identity, as key to our personal autonomy.

"By challenging the gender binary, Facebook will finally allow thousands of people to describe themselves as they are now and it will allow future generation of kids to become truly comfortable in their own skins." (continues)
www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10930654/Facebooks-71-gender-options-come-to-UK-users.html

I'm wondering if all the posters with gender disphoria who don't feel the current wave of activism is speaking for them could join together and write to MPs or somehow get it out there that it's not in your name.