Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk

609 replies

drum123 · 21/11/2018 20:06

Apologies if there is already a thread about this. Channel 4, 10.00 tonight. 'Stella O'Malley considers the huge rise in numbers of young people embarking on gender transition, through the prism of the gender identity issues she experienced when she was a child.' According to The Times no TRA groups were prepared to contribute to this . Stella feels this may be because she was a tomboy as a young girl, (even insisting she was a boy until she hit puberty), and is now a confident, mature woman who believes that nowadays she would be pressured to go down the transition route. Sounds like it will be worth watching.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
LangCleg · 27/11/2018 09:13

I'm civilised with my ex too but it doesn't mean he didn't put me through hell.

And I'm thankful he's not on this board, mansplaining women's experiences back to them.

Solidarity. I can imagine you are. Tone deaf and intrusive is deeply unpleasant.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 09:05

TinselAngel
I was similarly struck by the woman interviewed on the BBC as NotTerfNorCis commented on the TransWidows thread wrote:

"There's a story on the BBC today about a couple where the husband has decided to transition.

I feel so sad for the wife, Lynne. Right at the end she fixes the camera with a desolate stare and says 'things could have been so much worse. I'm one of the lucky ones.' She looks like she's about to burst into tears."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-bristol-46074037/the-couple-still-together-after-gender-reassignment

CathyDyson · 27/11/2018 09:02

Thanks for the supportive replies. I have to admit I went to bed wondering if I'd done the right thing and wondering what would be waiting for me in the morning. Glad to see some others feel the same way.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 08:53

As for Debbie's wife, I guess, all one can do is leave the door open and make it clear her voice will be heard. (?)

I imagine it might be difficult for a woman in such a position where their husband is being so widely applauded and celebrated as being such a 'good guy'.

Further isolation?

TinselAngel · 27/11/2018 08:46

I get what you're saying Deep, but I wouldn't be here if my ex had got here first. I'm lucky he didn't work that out.

deepwatersolo · 27/11/2018 08:43

And Debbie is human and god knows wanting to be happy isn't and shouldn't be a crime. I've got sympathy with the decision Debbie made. But here of all places we mustn't buy into the 'brave and stunning' narrative. Debbie's choices had serious effects on Debbie's wife and children and it's OK to talk about that.

Well expressed how I feel, Bernard. As for Debbie's wife, I guess, all one can do is leave the door open and make it clear her voice will be heard. (?)

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 08:41

I'm civilised with my ex too but it doesn't mean he didn't put me through hell.

And I'm thankful he's not on this board, mansplaining women's experiences back to them.

The space for women profoundly affected needs to be much better respected and protected.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 08:38

Each case is unique. Each person does the best they can, with the cards they were dealt.

Just as the transwidows thread demonstrates such clear and predictable patterns of control and abuse, so too the knowledge & experience on the relationship boards here.

I had bought into/being gaslit into the lie that every relationship was unique etc.

The Freedom Program, Lundy Bancroft, Women's services etc demonstrate that with male-pattern controlling abuse /behaviour there are scripts, inevitabilities and important patterns to understand.

This is especially pertinant given we are a few days into the 16 days of action:
WPUK

"End Violence Against Women & Girls
November 25th is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women and girls (VAWG). The United Nations are calling on people everywhere to stand up and be part of the #16days campaign to highlight the problem and to challenge society to act to end it.

The day was originally organised as commemoration of the assassination of three political activists, the Mirabal sisters, in the Dominican Republic in 1961. As those who campaign for human rights all over the world know, violence against women, sexual violence, and political oppression all too often go hand in hand.

The #16days campaign ends on 10th December which is UN Human Rights Day to make the point that women’s rights are human rights and must be upheld.

This year the campaign is also using #hearmetoo.

The UN says:

“Violence against women and girls (VAWG) is one of the most widespread, persistent and devastating human rights violations in our world today remains largely unreported due to the impunity, silence, stigma and shame surrounding it.In general terms, it manifests itself in physical, sexual and psychological forms, encompassing:

intimate partner violence (battering, psychological abuse, marital rape, femicide);
sexual violence and harassment (rape, forced sexual acts, unwanted sexual advances, child sexual abuse, forced marriage, street harassment, stalking, cyber- harassment);
human trafficking (slavery, sexual exploitation);
female genital mutilation; and
child marriage.
To further clarify, the Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women issued by the UN General Assembly in 1993, defines violence against women as “any act of gender-based violence that results in, or is likely to result in, physical, sexual or psychological harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or in private life.”The adverse psychological, sexual and reproductive health consequences of VAWG affect women at all stages of their life. For example, early-set educational disadvantages not only represent the primary obstacle to universal schooling and the right to education for girls; down the line they are also to blame for restricting access to higher education and even translate into limited opportunities for women in the labour market."
womansplaceuk.org/end-violence-against-women-and-girls/

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 27/11/2018 08:33

And this person who has done this is given a platform by groups fighting for our rights simply because we agree with some of the things they have to say.

I've been sceptical of male transpeople inclusion in women's groups for a while. I can see that it is a an obvious way to prove that there is no hatred for transpeople, but I think it ultimately doesn't help women and girls.

The desire to please male people will exclude many women and often take the focus away from women and girls.

TinselAngel · 27/11/2018 08:31

Yes Kay,I'm civilised with my ex too but it doesn't mean he didn't put me through hell.

And I'm thankful he's not on this board, mansplaining women's experiences back to them.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 27/11/2018 08:26

debbie is just another male who prioritised their own happiness. And Debbie is human and god knows wanting to be happy isn't and shouldn't be a crime. I've got sympathy with the decision Debbie made.

But here of all places we mustn't buy into the 'brave and stunning' narrative. Debbie's choices had serious effects on Debbie's wife and children and it's OK to talk about that.

KayM2 · 27/11/2018 08:23

Every human being , all of us , have our own stories. All the same, yet also each unique. In order to make some sense of life, we tend to make assumptions about others. Just as we do in the case of marriages that end ( or stagger on making the best of it) when one person, usually the man but very occasionally the woman,transitions between gender roles.

I've seen the classic " it was just a bit of cross dressing but it got worse" scenario a few times. I have met a couple of (former) wives who have been , and seemed to still be, devastated. I've also seen one or two cases where both the partners had serious problems, pre marriage, just different ones.

I am fortunate to be still friends with both the vibrant, talented, funny, socially outrageous , hard drinking women I was once married to.
One for a very brief time, one for 20 years. In the end I divorced them both,when I could no longer tolerate the behaviours that shocked my family, and wore me down. In our old age we have continued to be friends; to the point of annual holidays and regular visits.

The cliched view of " poor wife, did not bargain for this" is a cliché because it is often completely true. But in life the obvious picture
is not always the full picture. Each case is unique. Each person does the best they can, with the cards they were dealt.

TinselAngel · 27/11/2018 08:23

I'm aware I could be projecting but it's not usually as simple as making a conscious decision to stay. You desperately want to keep your life and your family together so you make a series of accommodations and compromises, each of which is gradually pushed and then broken by the Trans partner.

deepwatersolo · 27/11/2018 08:20

Difficult topic. I like Debbie. But, clearly, it is important to listen and show solidarity to the wife, in a way that truly supports her. But do we even know what the wife would consider helpful support? She did make the conscious decision to stay, after all. Yeah, I don't know.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 08:12

This is the feminist board, we need to be centering her and her children

Absolutely and other women in similar situations.

TinselAngel · 27/11/2018 08:08

The look on her face when Stella said "We'll done" for staying rather than leaving, spoke volumes.

RepealTheGRA · 27/11/2018 08:05

What is Mrs Hayton’s name? Did it say on the documentary? Did I miss it? Blush

This is the feminist board, we need to be centering her and her children.

If you’re lurking FlowersWineBrewCakeGin drop in (even if under cover) lots of people here will support you.

LikeDust · 27/11/2018 08:00

I've been thinking about this too.

I was actually quite shocked and upset when Debbie said on the programme about not having really thought about the impact upon Debbie's own family.

The effect was palpable. Debbie's wife needing to take it a few hours at a time. That isn't living. That is a living death. How come Debbie isn't the one living just a few hours at a time, since Debbie is the one with the Dysphoria. Why should that suffering be transferred onto others?

It made a powerful argument for retaining the spousal veto for a GRC. Even the 'allies' like Debbie are utterly self-centred, self-absorbed and selfish about this. The law needs to protect spouses.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 27/11/2018 08:00

Great post, Cathy. You're absolutely right.

TinselAngel · 27/11/2018 08:00

It's maybe worth a new thread if anybody is brave enough to start one!

RepealTheGRA · 27/11/2018 07:47

This really shook me and made me think that maybe "gender critical" transsexuals with female partners, are appropriating women's spaces in a more insidious way that the TRA's that they criticise

Totally agree and I’ve thought that from the beginning. I was just waiting for someone more eloquent to express that. Thank you Cathy and Tinsel.

TinselAngel · 27/11/2018 07:41

Thanks Cathy for making that point. I've said similar on the Trans Widows thread. This really shook me and made me think that maybe "gender critical" transsexuals with female partners, are appropriating women's spaces in a more insidious way that the TRA's that they criticise. Because it cuts off the partners potential source of support.

What happened with my ex was bad enough but at least he's not a celebrated "feminist".

KayM2 · 27/11/2018 07:41

Yes; the spouse, if there is one, and the marriage would have otherwise been an enduring one ,is very often in a terrible position. Emotionally, financially... awful.

RepealTheGRA · 27/11/2018 07:39

Excellent post CathyDyson.

I am definitely team MRS Hayton.

R0wantrees · 27/11/2018 07:27

And this person who has done this is given a platform by groups fighting for our rights simply because we agree with some of the things they have to say. I've read the stories in the trans widows thread and they are so heartbreaking. Can you imagine if one of those husbands turned up here saying "but I want to help" ? Imagine the reception he'd be given. We wouldn't give him the time of day and yet we are giving a platform and saying well done that was a good speech or article to someone who has caused just the same damage to a woman. I could tell by some of the posts that people were possibly holding back, perhaps feeling awkward because of who Debbie is.

CathyDyson I have been thinking about this a lot recently.