Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk

QED.

Tinselangel;

Not unique at all. Many transsexual people are unmarried before transition. Today, with same sex marriage, there are some f to m transmen who were married to women, and in one such case I know well there is a child. Any such situations can be tragic, and often are.

Has anyone in the USA found a way to watch this?

You should do an AMA Betty, it'd be fascinating!

Thanks for the link. That was fun

The OP types fairly well for a person using only one hand.

And if anybody wants to see a prime example of the colour blindness some males seem to have on this, take a look at the OP on this thread, currently in Relationships:

Crossdressing Poll www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3433584-Crossdressing-Poll

Trans males who transition after divorce may state that, as if it is some kind of Get Out of Jail Free card, whilst neglecting to mention, or even fully understand how the process that leads up to this decision will have inevitably affected the wives before the split.

Maybe Kay, you are the true exception who didn't force a woman, desperate to keep her family together, through a hellish series of ever changing compromises by continually lying and pushing her boundaries.

If so then good on you, I think you are probably unique, based on every woman I have spoken to who has been in that position.

KayM2, you do know that centered and comment are two different words, don't you?

Still team Mrs Hayton!

It is clearly entirely appropriate for TS women to comment on this thread, as the issue of partners was included fairly and squarely in the programme.

It may be that some people are uncomfortable about it, but that does not make it inappropriate.

(Speaking for myself, there was no " trans widow" as I was unmarried at the time of my decision to transition, so I need no " validation", nor do I need to " centre" myself)

At no point, ever , have I argued that the spouse of someone who transitions from an otherwise successful marriage is in anything but a dreadful situation. That is a given.

In fact, I have seen more of that stuff happening than most, and have often commented elsewhere on the way that transition often causes wide ripples of damage. The one case I have personally known of f to m transition from within a marriage was also a " train wreck".

This is not the space for the former partners of transwidows to be centered, no matter how validating it may be for them to center themselves. I'm guessing I'm not the only one casting a jaundiced eye on attempts to do so.

Team Mrs Hayton. We've already seen Debbie arguing that if a woman or girl is uncomfortable with their presence in toilets, changing rooms etc then the onus is on that woman or girl to object on this very forum, so I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that Debbie hadn't really thought about what Debbie's transition has done to Debbie's family. Debbie's wife is allowed to be angry about that, and so are we.

*He began: 'I am very happy to be a man for now but I don't want to an old saggy man.

'I will do what Caitlyn Jenner did. When I reach my late 50s, I would rather be a sexy old lady then a saggy old man*

From here: www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4902598/Human-Ken-Doll-Rodrigo-Alves-reveals-sex-change-plans.html

And

*Rodrigo said: "II don't want to age as an old man, I'd like to grow old as a woman, I'm 34-years-old and am happy with who I am, but when I reach my 50s I could live as a woman.

"I am happy looking how I am for the moment but I don't want to age looking as a plastic modified man, I want the best of both worlds*

www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/human-ken-doll-rodrigo-alves-11398321

‘Facial feminisation surgery’ is more socially acceptable than a man getting a facelift/fillers. Plus, they get to be ‘girls’ and ‘go through puberty again ‘ despite natal women of the same age being proper fucking grown ups.

The human ken doll has said he will transition when he’s old, i forget his rationale, I will go look for quote...

I think it's the same reason that provokes any midlife crisis in men. They think "I'm going to get old and boring and feel unimportant, but I've always known I'm important, different and special. I'm going to do that thing now that I've often contemplated doing, before it's too late".

It's just the thing that they decide to do that varies. The thought process is the same.

Men often do behave extremely selfishly around the time of middle age.

I've wondered why that is in regards to transitioning. All the cliched things like having an affair, buying a fast car etc smack of some obviously sad attempt to hold onto their youth, to prove they've still 'got it' whatever it is. But why transitioning? What does that do or are we supposed to buy into the argument that those feelings have always been there but suppressed?

Some forms of male control-abuse are harder to identify. Especially for the woman.
In some patterns, the abuser is seen by all around the couple as the nicest, kindest, most generous of men. This can be a deliberate contributory aspect of the control.

Lundy Bancroft's book is, as always, worth sharing:
the-eye.eu/public/Psychedelics/Psychedelic%20Praxis%20Library%203.0/Collections%20by%20Subject/Social%20Progress/2002%20-%20Bancroft%20-%20Why%20Does%20He%20Do%20That%20Inside%20the%20Minds%20of%20Angry%20and%20Controlling%20Men.pdf

I agree with these brilliantly articulated points.

Men often do behave extremely selfishly around the time of middle age. I've known of a few cases of the husband feeling desperately sad, obsessively so, that he hasn't had sex with enough women in his life. The wife supports him to go out, shag someone else and come back to her. It mystifies me, but everyone who knows about it is clear about who in the situation is priorising their own happiness at someone else's expense and who is prioritising someone else's happiness at their own expense. The man having the affair doesn't get seen as stunning and brave - people think 'God what a selfish little shit how could she stand it?'.

It is so awful thinking of a woman having to deal with similar feelings of betrayal, abandonment, humiliation and disrespect, but her husband is able to get greater social standing and approval.

It reminds me of cultures where polygyny is the norm and women are supposed to suck it up and be happy about her husband taking on a new wife. In those cultures women have very low social status and value.

There's also an impact on daughters who are adolescent or entering adolescence around the time their erstwhile dad is transitioning. A friend of mine went through this and really struggled with the pressure to be 'girls together' just when she needed to be separating from her parents into her own new identity. I'm sure some parents manage better than others but I can't see how it can be anything other than appropriative.

Debbie spends a lot of time now writing , appearing in the media and doing work to do with being a transwoman. And still has a teaching job. Therefore a lot of energy is being taken away from the marriage and directed towards the issue that has caused the sacking of being a wife.

I thought about that too. My first reaction was, shouldn't you be spending more time on your marriage than doing all those things? Maybe things are so bad that it is actually more helpful for both of them for Debbie to busy themselves so there is less interaction.

and even in articulating that thought, I'm talking loads more about Debbie than about Jennifer.

Your attention gets sucked in certain directions and it's hard to fight it.

Yes, Lang, thanks for clarifying my thinking.

My view is that Debbie is entitled to support, but not here. This place is by, about and for women.

Debbie's wife clearly needs support, and should be able to access it on a feminist board. If Debbie's presence here prevents Debbie's wife from accessing this board for support, then Debbie should leave.

Mumfun - that is a very good post.

For me, the question isn't really about a hierarchy of suffering. It's about women's spaces resolutely centring women. This doesn't mean that one lacks sympathy for the suffering of male people (with regard to any issue, not just trans issues) but that feminism should centre women and only women.

I also agree with your post Cathy. Thank you for articulating my unease.

I think her name is Jennifer

CathyDyson

I have been thinking about this a lot too. It was also a personal issue as I felt aligned somewhat to Mrs Hayton. I was sacked as a wife by my husband for another reason. And this sacking is what I felt happened to Mrs Hayton. I believe that UK marriage includes sex as a legal element. And very obviously a trans sexual transition denies a sex life to the transwidow and also physical affection also as (shown in the film) she didnt relate to the changed body.

It left her in limbo. She is a wife but not a wife. She has all the heavy lifting to do but with less of the affection and support. And has to deal with several other factors to which I can relate. She is I think of a strong religious background which makes separating and divorce much more difficult to contemplate. She also has to deal with a factor I had - with a lot of energy being put outside the relationship. Debbie spends a lot of time now writing , appearing in the media and doing work to do with being a transwoman. And still has a teaching job. Therefore a lot of energy is being taken away from the marriage and directed towards the issue that has caused the sacking of being a wife.

It is heartbreaking and incredibly difficult to deal with.

I was in limbo for another reason concerning my marriageand I know it is a really bad place to be and you should get out of it if at all possible. I did and feel immensely better than I did.

I agree that I think Debbie took the actions she did due to dysphoria and that she was in another bad place herself.

I noticed she bit her lip a bit as her wife spoke in the film showing that she realised how hard it is.

But she has found herself in a much better place than her wife in that she drove the changes and still has a family and family home and support. It is hard to write about this but I do feel more for the person left in limbo and in greater distress. I hope longer term the wife can leave the relationship as the children mature , get out of limbo and find her own new life that gives her joy.