Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk

And in many cases they will. The Tavistock Clinic says that most do " step back" and live lives as ( usually ) homosexual men and women.But; who knows how many will be knocking at the doors of the Gender Identity Clinics when they are 30? Or 50? A few? Many?

The evidence suggests that not many females will. If this gender dysphoria is consistent, insistent, persistent and a lifelong thing, we should be seeing lots of older women queuing up for the treatment that was unavailable in their youth. We are not.

Btw Stella (I think the real one) made a quick appearance on the thread in TV addicts, I hope she comes over here.

Exactly, Floral. The idea that a load of feminists might not have dreamed that so many people can have difficulties with gender is just... I don't think I can find the word. I'm slightly bemused, at the very least.

I would say that gender dissonance is phenomenally common. I think that's the point that feminists have been making for years - the amount of people who quite content in the strictures of gender is very small.

The difference between feminists and transactivists is that Transactivists think that if you feel that your 'gender identity' doesn't match your understanding of the appropriate gender rules for your body, that means your body is wrong and you are a candidate to modify your body, whereas feminists think that the idea of gender is the problem and that is what should be challenged and changed.

Oh bullshit, Kay. James Caspian is a trustee of the Beaumont Trust, FFS.

As I have said earlier, I thought that this programme was well worth watching, and of real value. But, lets not lose sight of the fact that it was not even handed. Bath Spa, for example, has quite a different version of events than that which we heard. Similarly the man who had spent 10 years working in a Gender Clinic... which clinic? where? was it a UK Gender identity clinic? Or was it a private clinic that attempted to " cure" GD? Many unanswered questions, as there always is.

There is always the danger that the narrative is that "there is no such thing", and that if parents and others " stand firm" young people will "get over it". And in many cases they will. The Tavistock Clinic says that most do " step back" and live lives as ( usually ) homosexual men and women.But; who knows how many will be knocking at the doors of the Gender Identity Clinics when they are 30? Or 50? A few? Many?

It is not as simple as both sides like to assume. There seems to be an issue of " contagion" at the moment. Though some transactivists would be angry that I say that. The other conclusion, that gender dissonance is much more common in our society than any of us dreamed of, now THERE is a can of worms.

I thought it was balanced!

It had:

*very sympathetic interviews with two young people who were happy about transition and were well enough adjusted in it to be open and honest about the pros and cons

*a sympathetic interview with parents of another young transitioner who were conflicted about whether or not they were doing the right thing but on balance had decided that they were

*one adult who was happier post transition but who acknowledged the effect on family

*one person who had detransitioned but who clearly did not oppose others transitioning

*a therapist who has spent years supporting transition and many transitioners, but is worried that contagion is now occurring

*one interview with someone who entirely opposes child transition

*a few minutes of extremist TRAs making themselves look bad

So, Stella O'Malley only spoke to one person in the whole hour who felt children should not transition at all. One. And that caused this level of meltdown on trans Twitter. Idiots screeching about Nazis and trans people being beheaded left right and centre, FFS. Things that are genuinely figments of disturbed imaginations. Imagine what something actually outright critical would do. Twitter would combust and disappear from the ether altogether.

We need more programmes and an investigation of how trans differs according to the direction you are going in ie Debbie Hayton's journey (middle aged father, transitioning with a well-established family life) is not the same as a middle aged mother transitioning to male...in fact, does this happen? Has it ever happened?

The high prevalence of autism in girls wanting to transition needs investigating.

The possibility that teenagers who want to transition may be lesbian or gay needs looking at.

There was not time to cover everything in one programme, and I thought it did really well in looking at the risks of transitioning medically (and surgically - mastectomy at very young ages) and raising serious concerns. Stella O'M was an empathic and non-judgmental interviewer - ideal for this topic.

Debbie Hayton's wife - OMG. She lives 'hour to hour', I think she said. She is very unhappy. I thought that came across so clearly.

There is no middle ground in this debate because you either agree that men can become women or you don't. Either you agree that any man becomes a woman simply by announcing it, and is now to be treated as a woman in every possible context, or you're a hopeless transphobe.

There is no middle ground with TRAs. It's all or nothing.

Incidentally, KayM2, it's good to have your voice. I hope your presence here was, at least in part, the result of the chat we had when we met while I was leafletting for FPFW.

It's good to see you here. I hope you've forgiven me for my observational lapse. I'm not good at noticing what people are wearing. But you pass very well.
.
I think part of it is this is a result of actually aligning yourself with women, trying to fit in, than trying to silence and invade us as the TRAs do.

How was it one sided Cathy? None of the interviewees expressed any regret at their decision to transition. Even the detransitioner!

Excellent programme I thought. I’m another who like Stella would have been a prime target for transing if I’d been born 25 years later. I’m autistic. And now very happy as a woman. It’s terrifying to think what I would have missed out on, pregnancy etc. I found it really sad when Kenny was talking about the possible loss of sensation on surgery. Kids potentially missing out on any sex life at all as adults, let alone the infertility issues. Kids and teens are known for not understanding the long term consequences of their actions, it’s part of growing up, but the potential permanent changes just shouldn’t be allowed to happen.

The protests were horrific, I found myself laughing at how pathetic they were but it must have been scary to be there at the time. The person talking about pronouns, it was like a parody. Ridiculous.

The position of the spouse in these cases is not addressed often enough. Their position is often awful, and is always unenviable.

On the other hand ( the trouble with this business is that there is ALWAYS " another hand" ,to ask someone to put the GD on one side is natural but often quite impractical. Some manage it. Very often they can't. Who is to say how much the Gender Dysphoria impacts in individual cases?

I try not to judge others in this; usually everyone tries to do " the right thing". Often " the least worst thing", in the end.

I’ve just watched on catchup. I’m so, so glad that this side of the debate has been put on TV.

Neuro I think you’re absolutely right.

letera; that is not a " fixed position", intellectually, it is a biological fact.

I was referring only to the difficulty of being objective about the various aspects of the controversy.

Neuro - that’s a very interesting point. I feel like being ‘boyish’ was much easier to do in the 80s (I’m just shy of 40), and in the 90s we had goth and grunge which was great for boys and girls. The ‘pinkification’ has got really out of control and the less ‘gender conforming’ daughters of friends of mine seem to go much further in their looks to be ‘boyish’ than any of the ‘tom boys’ I knew as a kid - it feels like you’re not allowed to be slightly ‘boyish’ now nearly as much - as if you have to go the whole hog and have very short hair and just superhero/blue clothes etc. Maybe that’s because the only other choices available as very girly, I don’t know. I know it’s a real struggle and getting harder to find clothes for 8 year old DS that aren’t all just blue, brown,khaki boringness.

I see that some people on Twitter are making a distinction between being non-gender conforming and being ‘really’ trans. So they would argue that is ‘all’ Stella was - gender non conforming. But the only evidence for being really trans seems to be feeling it, or being more extreme about it, and we can’t take that out of the society which is increasingly polarised, so it’s very hard to tell where that line is drawn (if anywhere).

I think the trouble in the whole debate is that quite often things come across as one-sided which makes it easier for people to dismiss it as transphobic. I remember reading Transgender Trend's schools information and all the examples are of people who made mistakes and were glad they didn't end up regretting them. I know that's sort of the point but that also makes it easy for trans rights activists to dismiss it.

I'm just catching up on this and haven't rtft.

I've just had a big query;

I just wonder how much of the fact that Stella clearly openly expressed her self through stereotypical boy ways as a child, helped in some ways to not have those feelings as an adult?

Because it's harder for boys to do this. I knew I could act and dress 'like a boy' in the 80s (I'm 41). But the little boys I knew certainly couldn't. And I wonder if it's been harder for girls in recent times too.

The Bristol mob remind me of those calling for the death of Asia Bibi in Pakistan. They’re totally unhinged.

It was interesting, but I prefer good investigative journalism. I think the trouble is with using personal experience as a bit of a yardstick here, is that it is just one person’s experience. Stella felt like a boy and came out of it. That’s interesting, and I think we need to know that this happens, and also that children also start the process then stop, but one or two examples is not compelling.

I think the real story here is that the puberty blockers can be dangerous, that the trans agenda, supported by gov and major political parties, is pushing their use. What did not get asked once in the programme as far as I saw, was to ask these young people what they mean when they said they felt like a boy. What was disturbing about being a girl? What is their understanding about what it means to be a boy or a girl? Louis Theroux never asked that in his documentary either. Annoyed the heck out of me.

Got myself in a mess with my pronouns above - I try not to use pronouns concerning trans gender people as I don’t want to be offensive to them or untrue to my own beliefs, but I did use pronouns with Debbie. When I said ‘she is obviously looking after her family’ I meant I felt that Debbie’s wife is looking after her family, in the way she is approaching and managing things.

I admire Debbie for standing up to TRAs and speaking out as a trans woman but I think the documentary did a good job of showing the effect of transitioning on people close to the trans woman or man.

When a close family member of mine was severely anorexic and I expressed how it affected me (worrying they would die), the family member was extremely angry that I was in any way involving myself in their pain and problems. Later, when they were recovering, they could see that obviously they weren’t the only one suffering from their pain. I thought what Debbie said seemed quite reflective of that, realising later the impact transitioning had on everyone.

(I know the anorexia and trans analogy wouldn’t go down well with all - it is just an analogy, though if you accept gender dysphoria as a diagnosis, it is a mental health issue along with eating disorders).

The impression I got was how great Debbie’s family are. I don’t really want to speculate on how her wife feels as she seemed quite reticent about it all, but she is obviously looking after her family - and that did strike me as very much the lot of natal women in these types of situations, however they choose to do it.

Also interesting that Stella used ever meeting with Debbie to reflect on the potential negatives of transitioning later (difficulties of already having a family who have to adjust to this huge change, heterosexual wife, mental health problems from trying to repress trans nature for years...) - I thought this was quite balanced as it was in many ways a potential argument for earlier transitioning. (Though also, of course, for counselling and openness about gender and roles and what you want and feel you should do in society which might mean you made other choices earlier, I suppose).

Just watched it. Agree with what others have said about Debbie's wife. 'Broken' is the right word. Feel so sorry for her.

KayM2

My 'objective, fixed position' is that I am an adult human female - and I have objective scientific evidence of that.

The Juno tweet is so me, me. Trans people's experience and trans this and that. Totally missing the fact that children who are NOT trans will be harmed by this new fashion for medically transitioning before puberty. But then who cares about them - they're cis scum I suppose.

I would be proud of my children if they felt so strongly about something that they wanted to peacefully protest

I would be so disappointed if they felt the best way to do that was wear a mask, yell obscenities and prevent people from going somewhere they needed/wanted to go

That Juno tweet is so tone deaf. I can't believe that there is any woman out there who doesn't accept transwomen as transwomen. What is wrong with that? The difficult experiences of transwomen stem from either male homophobia and male violence or from transwomen trying to co-opt the experiences and spaces of women. Stop doing the latter and join with women to combat the former and that's where the consensus can be built.