New Zealand: Bill on transgender birth certificates creates big issues

I don't think that human rights are a zero-sum game though - the addition of rights to some humans needn't be to the detriment of others.

Excellent!

So now: what rights do transpeople lack that everyone else has?

I find it incredibly sad that purported feminists think that being big, or wearing frilly pink scarves make someone any less of a woman.

Can you explain what you mean by this? The person is Male are they not?

by the way, a 'feminist' is someone who recognises that they are a woman. The way a woman recognises she is a woman is by looking at her body, and by a life time of being treated according to her body. These are not 'purported' feminists, but actual feminists. Women who think their existence as a woman is just down to a feeling in their, or in a man's head, are certainly not feminists.

julj70

A parrot can mimic the sounds of a fire engine; but that does not make the parrot a fire engine.

A man wearing clothing associated with females does not make him female no matter what he thinks or feels.

Queer theory calls this the 'performance' of gender. A performance is just that: a performance.

This is not to be unkind, but just to face reality. The reality is that women are women because they are women ( they are biologically female); even if they have short hair; wear doc martens and dungarees.

Nobody is objecting to people performing or presenting as they like ( well not here, they aren't), what is being objected to is males trying to force their way into female spaces; and what's more trying to re-arrange basic language and concepts so as to make their identity more valid; but at the expense of the language and concepts that women require to name and describe their experience as women.

Gosh, halfway through this thread and I am really wishing I'd bought my TRA Bingo card with me, because we have a trans poster dead set on ensuring I'd get a full house!

Eh?

julj70

I find it incredibly sad that purported feminists think that being big, or wearing frilly pink scarves make someone any less of a woman.

I used the words 'big person' because of the MN posting rules.

Further to Boko Haram et al - the flip side of the delusion "I have changed sex" is that this poor sod was raped and said repeatedly "but, I am a man" during the assault.

A lot of abuse and hardship could be avoided by everyone if full and earnest believe could actually change reality.

What I don’t understand is the lack of medical changes required.
Surely if I was born as the wrong sex and wanted to changed my gender from female to Male, then I would also want to have a cock and loose my tits.
Yet this doesn’t seem to be the case as everyone wants to retain the parts they were born with. So what part of the wrong body were they born into?
At least the older trans actually went through the physical changes rather than trying to gaslight the rest of us.

Gosh, halfway through this thread and I am really wishing I'd bought my TRA Bingo card with me, because we have a trans poster dead set on ensuring I'd get a full house!

Further to Boko Haram et al - the flip side of the delusion "I have changed sex" is that this poor sod was raped and said repeatedly "but, I am a man" during the assault.

I don't doubt that's what they believed, but, the rapist knew better.

I have total sympathy for this person. What a brutal way of having the truth served up. Very brave to speak up, and I'm glad the scumbag rapist was jailed. Still think "poor sod" though.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-41614755

Oops. That was in response to an earlier question.

Because you're only a woman and you need to make way for men and their hurty feelz.

Annandale, but how can that be if there was no one there to assign you one?

There was no midwife or doctor at my birth. Oddly enough I still have a sex.

I await hearing about gender identity’s relationship to the humours.

Well, given that we've had references to lady souls in parliament yesterday, and an academic paper which seemingly connects beliefs in transgenderism with readiness to believe in metempsychosis (transmigration of souls), it's surely only a matter of time before the four humours get a look in. Perhaps along with phlogiston and caloric (though in fairness, those made a lot more sense than transmigration, and even epicycles gave an excellent algorithm for doing calculations with).

It’s interesting that Boko Haram don’t appear to have any difficulty in deciding who is a woman when they target people for mass kidnappings. And Saudi Arabia is quite able to who falls in the category of woman when deciding who needs a chaperone to leave the house of (until recently) who is able to drive a car. And Britain 100 years ago was able to sufficiently identify women in order to deny women the right to vote.

It’s only when women want to work together to protest their treatment for being women that the category of woman is suddenly terribly difficult to define.

Funny that.

I find it incredibly sad that purported feminists think that being big, or wearing frilly pink scarves make someone any less of a woman.

Does having your meat and 2 veg make you ‘any less of a woman’ then? 🙄

This is my main bug bear of this argument. If it isn't reproductive sex that separates us into male and female (therefore men and women as that is what we call male and female humans), then what is it?

I know we are all humans and all have more in common than the differences.

But, why would we have a subgroup called "women" that don't share reproductive sex? What is that group based on?

If science comes up with a link, I might be happy to change my view.... but I still think we would need subgrouping and appropriate segregation based on reproductive sex for humans as we have for all animal species.

That idiotic cake meme on the internet has such a lot to answer for (the "human rights are not like cake..." meme). Of course rights can conflict. Abortion - either the pro choice people are correct that a woman's right to bodily autonomy is the more important right, or the anti abortion campaigners are correct that the foetus has a right to life and this is the primary consideration. But you can't have both a non-permanence woman ,10 weeks after she conceived, and a live foetus.

Similarly, you either have sex segregated spaces or "gender" segregated spaces, but they can't be both.

at PainintheEar.

I don't think that human rights are a zero-sum game though - the addition of rights to some humans needn't be to the detriment of others

I don’t want to share a communal changing room with people who have a penis. I’d don’t care what they wear or how they identify .

I have a right to privacy. Why do you want to take that right away from me Julj70 ?

All these epicycles within epicycles attempts to persuade us that sex isn't binary and that this somehow has something to do with trans issues always make the same two fallacious moves, and try to present these fallacious moves as gotchas.

They start from the correct premise that both the chromosomes and the embryological pathways controlling the development of the reproductive system are complex and that there's therefore scope for lots of things to go wrong. (Remarkably, given this huge scope for things going wrong, it works out just fine 99.9% of the time unless you artificially inflate the percentages by including minor cosmetic differences which most geneticists and embryologists don't categorise as intersex conditions).

They then make the first fallacious step - that the existence of intersex conditions means that ordinary members of the public therefore struggle to correctly work out sex in the other 99.9% of cases (see for example that fatuous statement in parliament yesterday about women with beards).

They then add the further fallacious statement that this has anything whatsoever to do with being trans. Trans people are no more or less likely to be intersex than the general population - in fact as far as I can tell the typical late-transitioning transwomen usually does so after fathering several children.

TLDR - women don't have penises.

Isn't that a rather large decision to leave to a cursory glance by a midwife

I can just imagine the conversation now:

Midwife: You know what, I'm down this week's quota for boys and it's lunchtime so what the hell. I don't need more than a cursory glance to coercively assign it a male gender.

Mother: But, she doesn't have a penis! Or testicles! She has a vulva.

Midwife: Shaddap. Congratulations on your new baby son.

Mother: But it's a girl!

Midwife: Shut up, you bigot.

It was a cursory glance from a midwife that violently assigned me as bipedal rather than someone with the inner essence of a person with half a leg

What do we call that group of humans that belong to the group that have the potential to gestate and birth live young? What do we call that group that make up about half the population? They are different to the other half. If only we had a simple word that we could use to describe them.