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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New Zealand: Bill on transgender birth certificates creates big issues

194 replies

TimeLady · 21/11/2018 19:35

Sounds familiar....

www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/108740984/Bill-on-transgender-birth-certificates-creates-big-issues

OP posts:
DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 19:11

Julj won't be back because there's no sensible response to the points made.

Those are two different issues: (1) Julj may or may not be back but (2) irrespective of their return there is no sensible defence to the points raised.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 22/11/2018 18:25

If they’re in New Zealand, it’s only just morning now and they’ve probably been asleep!

StarsAndMoonlight · 22/11/2018 18:21

Julj won't be back because there's no sensible response to the points made.

gendercritter · 22/11/2018 17:23

A very intelligent friend of mine told me recently that she was struggling to see how anyone can establish or really even define sex, it is just so complicated. She might as well have announced she is a creationist I'm struggling to see her in the same way now. Sad

It's really really odd how sex is such a mysterious thing to fathom and yet men have successfully and viciously oppressed women for millenia. I mean, I'm honestly baffled and even more impressed than I once was. I think their brains are just infinitely superior to lady brains really.

Annandale · 22/11/2018 16:41

Grin Saskia luckily my mother was present... also my grandmother. Despite neither being a medical practitioner, they were able to accurately observe my sex as female. As in well over 99% of births.

What could be more Westernized than the 'assigned at birth by a doctor' definition of sex, hastily repurposed for the UK as 'assigned at birth by a medical practitioner' in case anyone spotted that British babies tend not to be delivered by a doctor. 'Assigned at birth by the mother' somehow doesn't sound quite as coercive, does it? It's equally untrue, though, hence my recent letter to my MP (so far unanswered) requesting this inaccurate definition of sex be removed from all government documents.

ShotsFired · 22/11/2018 16:13

DisrespectfulAdultFemale Ah, thanks, Shots. I hadn't realised that the newest poster was trans. I thought they were just incredibly stupid.

Yes they have an incredibly short posting history and all on one topic, funnily enough.

Almost like they came, they saw, they plopped.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 12:38

This I would love to see. Bowl wipes the floor with anyone who is foolhardy enough to take her up on the challenge.

Bowlofbabelfish · 22/11/2018 12:04

julj

Happy to discuss intersex conditions with you if you think that’s a gotcha.

Materialist · 22/11/2018 11:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StarsAndMoonlight · 22/11/2018 11:24

Actually, I will apologise for that. It is in the consciousness of some transwomen.

They tend to be the ones who are also arguing against self id and TWAW.

Because they get it too.

SlowlyShrinking · 22/11/2018 11:24

Being a man makes someone not a woman at all Confused nothing to do with clothes or scarf colour

StarsAndMoonlight · 22/11/2018 11:21

See, the thing is, Julj a woman already knows these things.

We might need to check up on the specifics but it's already in our consciousness. It's in the consciousness of all women. Wherever they live.

The fact it isn't ever in the consciousness of transwomen is very revealing...

StarsAndMoonlight · 22/11/2018 11:18

So, just in case it is not clear...

Sex separation exists to protect women from those men who would do us harm.

And to meet biological needs that we do not share with men because they are unique to our female biology.

The reason we no longer require chaperones in this country is largely because we now have sex specific services, including public toilets, that offer us some protection.

That is why we separate by sex.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 11:16

Or how about Bangladesh where women have had acid thrown in their faces by the men they did not want to marry? Can they "identify" their way of that?

Or women in India who are burnt to death because their dowries are deemed insufficient by their in-laws?

Neither of these are western countries.

Awaiting your reasoned and well-evidenced rebuttal.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 11:14

an Indian woman

India, which is not western, is one of the worst countries (along with Afghanistan, also not western) in which to be female. Do you need examples of how women in those countries are victimised because of their sex?

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 11:11

Ah, thanks, Shots. I hadn't realised that the newest poster was trans. I thought they were just incredibly stupid.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 11:10

To follow on the point Stars made: women who work in the fields in Egypt have the same problem with a lack of sanitation due to fear of sexual assault leading to urinary tract infections.

Plus, they have the added burden that in Islam there have to be witnesses to a sexual assault who are willing to testify on behalf of the victim. If the woman is unmarried she is considered to have brought shame on the family for having sex outside of marriage. In some cases, women are forced to marry their rapists to protect the 'honour' of their families. In other cases, women are killed - or imprisoned for their own protection - because they are considered to have brought 'dishonour' on their families.

So, do you want to ask the monumentally stupid question again about "convention[s] of western society"?

StarsAndMoonlight · 22/11/2018 10:46

When babies/children show symptoms of sex specific conditions, HCPs don't refuse to investigate, preferring to wait and see how the individual later 'identifies'; they recognise the child's sex and its relevance and act accordingly.

Datun · 22/11/2018 10:42

And yes the midwives/cursory glance, is a massive giveaway. You do realise that your baby is fully examined and scored on the Apgar scale, don't you?

There's nothing cursory about childbirth, I can assure you.

KristinaM · 22/11/2018 10:37

Shotsfired - can I offer up “ appeals to be nice”? Eg

Intersectionality

Women as human shields

Suicide

Cis privilege

The most oppressed

Juells · 22/11/2018 10:33

Following on from StarsAndMoonlight's points - an Indian woman I know drove everywhere, and would panic if her car was out of commission and she might have to wait at a bus stop alone. In her forties, when she went back to Kerala (which is considered to be the most equal society in India) a male relative would have to accompany her if she wanted to go shopping, for her safety.

Oh if only women could identify out of the danger.

Datun · 22/11/2018 10:31

Julj70

Do you seriously think we haven't heard the intersex argument before?

As soon as transactivists noticed the existence of intersex people and how chromosomes can wander down a biological cul-de-sac, they seized upon them with glee.

The intersex society (UK I think) eventually published a public letter basically tell them to fuck off. Because their attitude to surgery and that of transactivists are diametrically opposed. And no amount of coercion was going to get them to capitulate to a public collaboration.

In terms of an argument to shore up the trans ideology, it's easily refuted. Although tedious.

But what people like you believe it does for the trans argument is monumentally outweighed by your credibility plummeting, because I'm afraid you look like a callous misogynist getting off on some intellectual wanking at the expense of both intersex people and women.

But I guess you're fine with that.

ShotsFired · 22/11/2018 10:24

Me: Gosh, halfway through this thread and I am really wishing I'd bought my TRA Bingo card with me, because we have a trans poster dead set on ensuring I'd get a full house!

DisrespectfulAdultFemalequeried this.

I mean because the poster in question has already bought up:
"purported feminists think that being big, or wearing frilly pink scarves make someone any less of a woman" - TICK
"So you're saying that women (and presumably also men) are defined by their reproductive organs" - TICK
"the addition of rights to some humans needn't be to the detriment of others." - TICK
"what about people with AIS/PAIS?" - TICK
"[what about] intersex" - TICK
"Sex... a cursory glance by a midwife?" - TICK
"[Sex segregation being] a convention of western society" - TICK

I'm waiting to see which next off the checklist of supposed gotchas they bring up before I can claim my full bingo card.

StarsAndMoonlight · 22/11/2018 10:22

You make a good point about the original reason for separating by sex.

Is that universal, or a convention of western society?

As other people have already pointed out, some societies abandon/kill their newborn babies based on their sex (girls). They are separated by sex.

Here is an article about 'toilet injustice' in India that explains what happens when people, but women in particular, do not have access to toilets www.nytimes.com/2012/06/15/world/asia/in-mumbai-a-campaign-against-restroom-injustice.html?module=inline

Here is a quote from the article: Like men, women in villages often must urinate outdoors, in fields. But unlike them, they sometimes endure taunting and even sexual assault. Many rural women relieve themselves in small groups, before dawn, to protect against harassment.

People here don't seem to have an issue with separating by sex.

It is such an issue, that a film was made about it www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/world/asia/india-toilet-movie.html

Quotes from the article: “This is a real problem,” said Jagmati Sangwan, a women’s rights advocate. “So many women, especially landless women, face a lot of violence when they go to the bathroom outside.”

To avoid being leered at during the day, some women hold on for hours for darkness to fall. Waiting that long can create health problems, particularly for pregnant women, who are highly susceptible to urinary tract infections, experts say.

The men who are assaulting urinating/defecating/menstruating women are separating out their targets based upon their sex.

Women in cultures/countries that do not have good records of protecting women do not leave their homes unaccompanied. They have chaperones. They do not have freedom or autonomy because they cannot be guaranteed safety from men. So they are separated based upon their sex.

In this country, it used to be customary for women to have chaperones and be accompanied when out and about because of the risk of assault that men posed or because of societal expectations of women based upon their biology. No one queried gender identify. Women and men were treated differently, ergo separated, based upon sex.

We separate by sex to prevent women from being sexually assaulted by men. Or rather, female bodied people from being sexually assaulted by male bodied people. On the occasions I've been sexually assaulted, none of the men stopped to ask my gender identify. They assaulted me because I am a woman and they recognised that. It was my biological sex that mattered.

Some cultures (not Western ones) separate menstruating women from the rest of society so that men don't have to deal with female biology. They are separated by sex.

As someone else said, Boko Harem didn't ask the female children how they identified. They separated the children they abducted from those they didn't by sex.

Are you seeing it yet?

Ereshkigal · 22/11/2018 09:57

That idiotic cake meme on the internet has such a lot to answer for (the "human rights are not like cake..." meme). Of course rights can conflict.

It's about as inane and stupid as the clownfish Facebook meme.

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