New Zealand: Bill on transgender birth certificates creates big issues

Sorry for typos substantiated should be understand

I've watched this whole tide of nonsense from afar, with admiration. But it seems to be spreading here too. I'm in a small town in the midlands. People here eat their dinner in the middle of the day - our equivalent to middle England.
But 2 out g the 3 new candidates for the local council have been described as 20 something lgbt advocates. Obviously a good thing but in the current climate something i wish to know a little more about.
In the library the other day - there is a big collection of health and well being books, loads f good stuff,being pushed on national media etc. In the teen section there are all the usual Growing Up books you'd expect. A small shelf in a small one room country library, 3 by Juno D wson .

As an Irishwoman I substantiated We're A Great Little Country all the Same syndrome.
We think we're great because we have a mystical poet for a president (obvs he's more and I actually do love him) and a young gay half Indian man as Taoiseach. Plus we did self id years ago and soon well have abortion services!!!!
But but but

Yeah - and it's not "just" groping too, Datun - 70% of those assaults involve direct genital contact And a full half of Maori girls suffer it

Women shouldn't have to use sexual abuse and assault as a reason to say no to male people, but the fact that male people and their allies won't even have the empathy to listen to sexually abused and assaulted women and girls, is horrifying.

1 in 3 girls in New Zealand will be seriously sexually abused by the age of 16,

Fucking hell Scrumplestiltskin. I'm absolutely gobsmacked by that statistic.

I frequently run out of words to describe a situation where the validation of a handful of men, a significant proportion of whom fetishise women, is placed above women and girls who have been sexually assaulted and abused by men. Because misogynistic, heartless bastards simply doesn't cut it any more.

gendercritter yes, they really are Often NZ is thought of as some wonderful, progressive little "clean green" nation, but really we are drowning in problems - housing, meth abuse, synthetic weed abuse that kills people, (sexual) violence against children, (specifically females,) and domestic violence that may "go both ways" often but only ends up in females being severely injured/dead. Julj has a very rosy, false view of our country.
FermatsTheorem and Fezzik, thank you It really angered me that Julj was trying to paint NZ as a progressive paradise. All laws that support transwomen will do, is make areas of public space even more hostile to women.
I'd also love Julj to come back and explain why she discriminates against presumed innocent non-trans males, by not wanting them in female spaces

They really do. I keep thinking of Sven the Seal from Mist sheepdog tales now.

I always think seals look a bit like dogs in the shape of their heads and eyes Binglebong.

Seals bark. Just in case anyone was wondering.

As do sealions.

KatVonGulag

Shit.
Cats bark?

Well, they do sometimes growl in a very similar way to dogs Kat never yet heard one bark though!

saskia

@Scrumplestiltskin thank you for your post at 10.27. It is brilliant and heartbreaking.

I think some people have taken Nursie's dimwitted utterances as scientific fact!

"Out you popped and everyone’s shouting: “It’s a boy, it’s a boy!” And somebody said: “But it hasn’t got a winkle!” And I said: “God be praised, it’s a miracle. A boy without a winkle!” And then Sir Thomas More pointed out that a boy without a winkle is a girl. Everyone was really disappointed."

I love Blackadder

julj70 hasn't answered my question about transabled people either - it's weird, no one ever does. I can't imagine why.

Those NZ statistics are heartbreaking.

That central inconsistency, that disconnect, shows the people advocating these views up for exactly what they are - MRAs who don't think women's consent (or indeed views of any sort) matter, because women aren't properly human in their minds

"Out you popped and everyone’s shouting: “It’s a boy, it’s a boy!” And somebody said: “But it hasn’t got a winkle!” And I said: “God be praised, it’s a miracle. A boy without a winkle!” And then Sir Thomas More pointed out that a boy without a winkle is a girl. Everyone was really disappointed."

Stars you hit the nail on the head:

Sex? No trumps yes.
Babies? No trumps yes.
Cup of tea? No trumps yes.
Men in women's spaces? Be rude not to.

That central inconsistency, that disconnect, shows the people advocating these views up for exactly what they are - MRAs who don't think women's consent (or indeed views of any sort) matter, because women aren't properly human in their minds.

And what is why I don't engage with posters like julj.

You're quite right of course!

Scrumple and

It's so easy for people in a given country to hide behind a figleaf of "we're doing this small liberal thing right, aren't we great?" While ignoring all the things that aren't going great. (Normally I'd include my own country in this but given the current government and UC etc. I'm not sure we can even lay claim to a fig leaf.)

For a scientist, you're not using any logic.

Perhaps the poster "identifies" as a scientist. All it would take is putting on a lab coat.

So fucking bored of the sophistry, the emotional blackmail, the deflection, the whataboutery.

And what is why I don't engage with posters like julj.

Allbthe rest of it is smoke and mirrors. The endless wittering about ‘whattaboitintersex’, the threats, the appeals to be nice, the shutupshutup, the twaw.,. It’s all just fiddling about the main point which is:

you cannot change sex regardless of how you look or act or present, and sometimes sex is important.

This this this. So fucking bored of the sophistry, the emotional blackmail, the deflection, the whataboutery.

Just NO.

Good post on another thread which gets to the heart of this.

No woman or girl should have to share a space with any male where both or either are naked without her freely given and informed consent . Anyone who opposes this is an apologist for rape culture.

@julj70

So female means 46 XX karyotype and nothing else then? Which has to mean that a woman with CAIS isn't, in your view, a woman and should use male toilets, changing rooms etc.?

Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension? If so, let me repeat myself:
Chromosomes dictate reproductive systems and genitalia, except in the case of intersex people, where birth assignment based on phenotype or condition is what dictates the sex class they are placed into.

Obviously women with CAIS are male intersex; if they were female, they wouldn't be identified as having CAIS. It's MALE disorder. However as they are intersex and will develop to be phenotypically more female, they are "assigned" female.

But presuming guilt rather than innocence isn't fair, it isn't 'Kiwi', and that's (just) one of the reasons I'm proud of my country.

I suppose you campaign for all NZ spaces being unisex then? After all, if you're presuming all males are innocent (including the trans ones,) and wait until someone has provably perved on, assaulted, or raped someone to exclude them, then to exclude non trans males preemptively is discrimination, and not "kiwi," right?
What's kiwi, actually (sadly) is that we have horrifically high murder rates of infants and young children for our population - see this horrific story, www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=149225 and this one too en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nia_Glassie_abuse_case

That's the kiwi way.

1 in 3 girls in New Zealand will be seriously sexually abused by the age of 16, 1 in 2 if they are Maori.
1 in 5 NZ women will experience at least one serious sexual assault as an adult.
Only 1 in a hundred rape cases reported will get a conviction.

www.helpauckland.org.nz/sexual-abuse-statistics.html

That's so kiwi.

In terms of domestic violence, this article says, "New Zealand has the worst rate of family and intimate-partner violence in the world. A shocking 80 per cent of incidents go unreported — so what we know of family violence in our community is barely the tip of the iceberg."
www.nzherald.co.nz/family-violence/news/article.cfm?c_id=178&objectid=11634543

THE WORST IN THE WORLD.

But that's us kiwis, huh?

How about you don't begrudge the battered, abused, ignored and dismissed KIWI women and girls our own spaces away from a cock and balls, huh? I think it's fairly self evident that our fucking safety does not trump a penis person's desire for validation. But it seems its the kiwi way to throw women and children under the bus, doesn't it? We're so fucking great at that. World class in battery and child sex abuse.

All of this boils down to the following.

You can’t change sex
Some people feel like they should be the opposite sex.
They cannot change sex
As they cannot change sex, the only other way of attempting to be like the other sex is to look like, or act like, the other sex
BUT - all that is behaviour, or dress, or stereotypes.
And really, people should be able to dress as they like.
But they can’t change sex
And sometimes, sex segregation or sex treatment differentiation is important.
And because people can’t change sex, for those very few times and places, sex matters.

Allbthe rest of it is smoke and mirrors. The endless wittering about ‘whattaboitintersex’, the threats, the appeals to be nice, the shutupshutup, the twaw.,. It’s all just fiddling about the main point which is:

you cannot change sex regardless of how you look or act or present, and sometimes sex is important.