ESRC sending millions of pounds to Sally Hines / Leeds Uni to research gender bollocks

Any debate has been frowned upon. There has been endless pr publicity stuff that has been shown and played on the radio, without any questioning, and then reports and parliamentary bills where the only people involved have been those who are pushing to make the changes. This is not democracy. No one can be 'informed public' just with one-sided glossy advertising to learn from. That is just telling people what to do. It is the sort of thing that used to happen after the law had been changed, like when the law changed on wearing seatbelts.

There was discussion, the decision was made then it was put into practice with public information before the law came into force. With this, it is being put into practice, then the decision is being made, and only then are there any smatterings of discussion, belatedly because no one really had a clue about any implications, and that has forced the general public to do something about it.

I put it to the assembled viper that far from wanting an open debate, public discussion is th last thing TRAs want. Because when the public understands exactly what the TRA line actually means, they will reject it.

They are relying on people having no clue at all and thinking along the lines of ‘oh oppressed? Well that’s bad. Like gay rights? Oh well I’m all for those? Oh those poor teenagers being bullied..’

As soon as people realise what the actual consequences are, they say no.

And so the GRA was snuck through quietly

Bowl - because it's what men want. Men want to access our spaces, and so, it is happening.

Just like in Ireland they got equal marriage before abortion rights - because men wanted to get married to each other and weren't bothered about reproductive care. What men want happens.

Women's voices and opinions are just irritations.

(caveat, I'm in a foul mood today and so feeling dangerously close to committing misandry)

Excellent question, Bowl.

Fpfw- not fpfq.

for a functioning democracy we need voters who are politically aware and knowledgeable about what they're voting for.

Absolutely! Yes we do. Very much so.

Which is why it’s so peculiar that TRAs want women to shut up.
But I’m glad you think everyone should be better aware of the issues. I think that too. Man Friday have certainly got this out into the public domain. FPFQ as well. And of course this very board. All talking. All discussing, all making people aware of the issue so they can excercise their democratic right to discuss.

So -!Why do you think there’s such an effort to make women shut up on this issue?

Oo, look, Goldsmiths has been described as edgy. What could someone concerned about the worth of academic rigour possibly be concerned about if an institution is excited about being controversially cool?

Hebe

She does use her name online, as that's where I have seen it. I wouldn't have known otherwise

because their very existence challenges sex and gender stereotypes

As you know perfectly well, while the GC feminist position is to support such individuals (but not as women) it performs a class analysis that argues transgender ideology reifies sex and gender stereotypes.

So. Why are there no £1m+ grants investigating this view? Again, as you know perfectly well, transgender ideology achieves the social engineering neoliberal capitalism is very happy with.

Thanks for saying you're an academic of this capitalism-friendly ilk. I understand your vested interest much better now.

Sorry spanna but trans and non binary identities don't challenge sexist stereotypes. They reinforce them.

it's a lazy sweeping statement which doesn't really say much, and it needs to be challenged

What, like 'transwomen are women', which is both sweeping and generally bollocks?

If you mean the idea that trans and nonbinary people have a legitimate identity and a set of needs which feminists should be interested in supporting (because their very existence challenges sex and gender stereotypes), then I don't see that as a mantra.

Could you point me to where someone on Mumsnet has disagreed with this statement? I, for one, completely agree with this statement. What I disagree with is that current ideology seems to dictate that a small group of activists have decided they and only they are the ones who get to decide what that legitimate identity is and how it impacts on others and anyone who objects is a TERF.

and another thing on intellectual dishonesty

why can the woketopian establishment clearly see that single sex toilets are important in the third world ( too often they are built co-joined with male toilets, raising the risk of “peeping Toms.” ) but don't aknowlege their importance here?

frankly it smacks of racism to me. I think they think nice british men are far more kind and reliable than those foreign types

or else (also possible), they just don't think it through at all

Carefully sidestepping the talented Professor Hines parroting 'transwomen are women' like a little woke automaton I see Spannablue

I think if academics in this field want people not to just dismiss them as woke numbskulls they could make a good start by not expecting people to believe statements that are patently untrue.

being able to define their terms would also be nice

if all you've got is 'you lot are so mean', it's possible that your arguments don't stand up to intellectual rigour

It already is, despite the fact that the ESRC is not strictly part of negotiations. Some universities in other European countries are already choosing not to work with UK universities because funding and staffing streams are potentially vunerable.

I’ve worked on some research projects funded by the EU, and if you had the “right” voices in your project, the funding could be extraordinarily generous. Mine was a international project involving several countries, but the lead agency was British.

Do you think Brexit will impact on the project funding, once Britain is no longer a member of the EU?

spanna I'm talking about '#transwomen are women #nodebate'.

'#transwomen are women' is a mantra. Sex is immutable, we can't change it and transwomen aren't women. '#nodebate' is complete refusal to debate. Attempts to do so are met with denouncement of the objectors as bigots.

Trans and non-binary people are, of course, real people but we really can't change sex.

They'll need a fucking big mirror to find those pregnant men. And a telescope.

yes, notorious. For its work in my field. Notoriously interesting, challenging, edgy, groundbreaking, active.

If you’re an academic, why are you so approving of how research councils operate? Every academic knows what a giant game the whole thing is, with a good dose of randomness and luck thrown in.

Goldsmiths is well known in my field.

I think the word you are looking for is ‘notorious’.

How about challenging a mantra that has not one shred of fact to uphold it and, when questioned, responds with accusations of bigotry and complete negation of and refusal to debate?

What mantra are you referring to?

If you mean the idea that trans and nonbinary people have a legitimate identity and a set of needs which feminists should be interested in supporting (because their very existence challenges sex and gender stereotypes), then I don't see that as a mantra.

There are lots of facts and evidence in lots of research, which I have posted links to in this forum.

I feel the need to call out bigotry when I see it.

I don't understand what you're referring to as being negated.

I do try to engage and debate but the hostility of this place doesn't lend itself to this.

I think this isn't really a debating kind of place- it's more like a club of likeminded people who just want to talk and chat rather than actually engage with alternative viewpoints.

Goldsmiths is well known in my field.

I am an academic and defend academic freedom. Yes, including people who are gender critical.