Woman's Hour Tues 20/11/18 "Why is the current debate about sex and gender so often called “toxic” - we hear from @Bex_Stinson and @helenlewis"

The thing is, we all know that Bex doesn't really feel unsafe, don't we? How many instances do we have of trans women being physically assaulted by women? Rough estimate: none.

On the other hand, how many examples do we have of self-identified trans women assaulting women? Loads and loads.

So Bex pretending to feel unsafe is an utterly pathetic, transparent and dishonest strategy. It is so striking once again that TRAs have no shame at all.

wheezy2 agree agree agree.

If Stinson (oh the irony of a patriarchal name) is the best Stonewall can send in to bat for them then they really don't have a leg to stand on. If i got it right the argument is "if a transphobic hears a trans person live on radio then that will enrage the transphobic person to such a degree that they will immediately turn on any trans people within range " So by not engaging in open debate Stonewall is "protecting " the people who they claim are marginalised and ignored by the rest of society and who Stonewall have pledged to be a voice for. It's a very quiet voice , and a very weak argument, if it can't even bring itself to join in a three minute debate on a polite radio 4 programme.

@ 10.07

"That is a decision that Stonewall has made very clearly, that we're not going to share our platform."

JG is having to bite her tongue an awful lot with this series. The spokesperson for Stonewall said that they didn't feel safe doing a live discussion at the BBC because they might be attacked. So in the one sentence we have (a) someone who doesn't understand what the point of being a spokesperson is and (b) insulting and casting slurs on JG's employers.
I hope JG is having a little lie-down now!
Loved that the trans debate was followed up by a discussion on periods. None of the feelz, just "this is what biology does to my body".

I do like to listen to these interviews a couple of times.
This helps me to identify what gets the most attention and what gets brushed aside.
MN threads are the excellent study notes.

Bex, I think, said or implied that not sharing a platform on this issue is Stonewall policy. Not just a Bex thing. Did I understand that correctly?

That's the impression I got. If so then very bizarre. If you are promoting a new ideology, a new way to understand what it means to be a woman or a man then surely you should be willing to discuss it.

Jane Garvey is magnificent!

Thank you Jane

I think Helen was very interesting - very smart and articulate and covered so much ground.

I would be interested though in her personal opinion on how this issue can be resolved. It would have been great to hear her against Bex 'I am a woman because I feel like a woman'.

I'm not sure that this can resolved adequately (so that the issue doesn't rear its head again) if we approach from perspective of politeness.

The whole conflation of TWAW should never have been allowed to happen. Women's rights were given away by a small closed group of mainly men who found it preferable to allowing same sex marriage. Unpicking this mess is going to upset some people who were falsely sold a lie that they could change sex.

Vulnerable people with crippling dysphoria need to be protected from discrimination and I think medical treatment can be justified in some cases but i don't think this whole unholy mess can be unpicked without saying some uncomfortably truths (Bex you are not, will never be and nobody really sees you as such.. sorry, now let's move on)

Brilliant move

Exactly Wheezy. very clever sandwiching...

'm sure most people listening to that will see the inconsistency of Bex Stinson claiming how frightened transwomen are to speak, whilst saying no one ever listens to us, whilst the whole world is very much aware of how the trans ideology is ploughing through everything.

It's astonishing really. Trans ideologists have the support of government, the major political parties, large charities, international agencies, big businesses. Despite this we're supposed to believe trans people are the most marginalised and oppressed people who have ever lived in the entire history of the planet.

I can't claim to be an expert in marginalised and oppressed people, but it seems to me that in general they don't have massive amounts of support in the private and public sector. Rather the opposite, hence the reason they're marginalised and oppressed.

Love how they have gone to periods and now Harriet Tubman - still have not listened tot the beginning but caught the last bit of Helen Lewis - thought she was great -

Then

Women leaders

periods...

And now Harriett Tubman.

What a great WH. Fantastic!

Waves at Jane.

I am beginning to think that WH have spent some time behind the scenes exploring the boundaries of what they can and can't say, how to approach these issues, and drawing up a plan of action.

It's too late for the consultation but let's face it, so many people (public and private) have only just begun to wake up to this.

Better late than never.

Yes there's gaps that need filling but that's what the mn feminist chat boards are for...

Zeugma I'll have another listen when they put it up later and try to catch the quote. That would indeed reflect badly on Stonewall.

Can you imagine if a religious person refused to do a live interview because they 'didn't feel safe' in the face of tough questions about their beliefs.

And back to parenting.

Nicely linked to the very female experience of periods.
Good to hear young people openly talking about it.
Toilets and all.

Subtle and effective, relevant to the trans issue.

I'm sure most people listening to that will see the inconsistency of Bex Stinson claiming how frightened transwomen are to speak, whilst saying no one ever listens to us, whilst the whole world is very much aware of how the trans ideology is ploughing through everything.

And people like Bex, who are supposed to represent LGBT in the most famous, and foremost LGBT organisation in the world, going into schools, advising governments and institutions, saying on national radio that they are frightened of going into the studio to talk to Jane Garvey is clearly nonsense. No one believes it.

If that's going to be the next argument for dismantling safeguards and accessing women and children, it's going to last about five seconds.

Dragon, well if so, that's even worse!

Interesting that they're now doing an item about periods.

Bex, I think, said or implied that not sharing a platform on this issue is Stonewall policy. Not just a Bex thing. Did I understand that correctly?

Wow! That went well. JG did a great job. She absolutely gets it. The difference between the WH piece just before the consultation closed and WH journalism this week is astounding.

Bex Stinson was pre-recorded last time on WH too (when Dr Nic was on). Evidently can't handle being put on the spot. Very telling, that. Yet again it's clear why the #nodebate mantra is hammered home ad nauseam.

As Sally Hines proved yesterday - as soon as this twaddle is exposed to rational discourse it all implodes in a cloud of incoherent nonsense.

How can you relisten - do you have to wait for iradio?