Woman's Hour Tues 20/11/18 "Why is the current debate about sex and gender so often called “toxic” - we hear from @Bex_Stinson and @helenlewis"

Am I right in thinking that they're debating this all week on Woman's Hour?

I'm more than half-expecting, given the way that on both days the feminists wiped the floor with their TRA opponents, that on the other days the TRAs will drop out, citing BBC bias and hostility and saying they are too fearful to take part in the remaining debates.

Loved the bit about transwomen being scared and "well, you're not going to be murdered by middle aged lesbians!"

Exactly Graun

“I’m off on maternity leave and I get to keep my job, no debate”

Easy peasy

JG's position is pretty clear, but she's hosting the arguments brilliantly and giving space to both sides of the argument. Thank you Jane. I imagine it's a difficult line to tread (and dangerous, in the BBC.)

That was one of the best pieces I've heard on this.

I agree and Jane, I Love You, thank you for asking the important questions!

The difficult thing about radio is that its' very exposing. Most trans women I've heard interviewed on the radio sound exactly like men

This is amongst the reasons why accepting complaints of misgendering feel to be problematic if they are to be made a matter of workplace discipline, customer complaints even without the apprehension of it being categorised as an offence.

So much fraud prevention depends on matching up the voice on the phone and the details in front of you yet there have been instances of complaints of misgendering because call centre workers perceived a male caller and queried it. There was more than a voice involved, but I should imagine the recent incident involving a complaint when someone was challenged picking up a parcel for a female name was similar.

I'm musing about this because I had a coffee shop chat with a law student yesterday who was very interesting about the legal discussion around intent and malice. We seem to be setting some people up for substantial consequences for unintentional consequences because they're obliged to fulfil their roles.

What, just say 'Women are voters, #NoDebate'?

Why didn't Millicent Fawcett et al think of that?

Bowl
It's the perfect medium indeed.

If only women could have obtained liberation and equality by demanding rights and then refusing to discuss it further.
Women are still slugging away discussing, reasoning, arguing, evidencing and bloody begging for consideration of our rights and even then ....
Because, power.

How many instances do we have of trans women being physically assaulted by women?

Well, apparently three young girls were rude to Eddie Izzard when he was crossdressing in their loo some years ago. They even started to follow him until he turned round and glared at them. Does that count?

Now available: www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00017sd

Radio is an excellent medium for this isn’t it?

"That is a decision that Stonewall has made very clearly, that we're not going to share our platform."
When Ruth the head of stonewall went on WH (after Johnny Best organised the petition) - she said something like 'we don't recognise that there are conflicting rights' and 'stonewall will not host this discussion'.
But this quote from Bex is in a new league of #nodebate. I have heard stonewall people at least three times on WH talking about this general issue and they are always separate from the other guests. It's pathetic and I can't see it going down well with WH listeners.

jellyfrizz Thanks for checking. If true, that's very worrying. So the organisation that has rendered the term 'trans' meaningless by including everyone from crossdressers to transsexuals and demands self ID for these groups has the official line that they won't discuss this face to face with anyone who has reservations about the whole thing?
And we are the bigots?
Excuse me if I'm suspicious of their motives.

It's time the media stopped letting these people control the whole discussion from the language to who is allowed to be included. It's time they were treated like everyone else and faced scrutiny and consequences.

So Bex is complaining on the one hand that trans voices can’t be heard over the deafening and relentless transphobia in the media. But at the same time adamant that Stonewall will not share a platform or discuss the issue.
So which is it? Can’t speak but you want to, or you won’t speak because no debate?

I think that if you want to hear a discussion about a political or ideological issue on your radio/tv show that you should only include people who are going to turn up.

If Bex Stinson is not willing to discuss with even a moderate on this issue (which Helen Lewis is) then Bex Stinson shouldn't be involved. Stonewall either has to bear the questions and consequences of their actions or they get left out of the conversation, tough shit.

Why not ask Jane Fae and actually bring up the topic of Fae's support for extreme porn and their misogynist and dismissive view of women ("eggshell skulls").

Or ask Shon Fae and bring up "enjoy your erasure" and their words to young people encouraging early sexual activity.

Ask Sarah Brown and bring up "suck my balls", their manipulation of Cambridge Council into breaking equality law and disenfranchising women, as well as their gross behaviour towards Julie Bindel.

Fgs ask Susie Green and actually bring up, well everything she has done, from taking a child to Thailand at 15 for elective genital surgery illegal in this country and then laughing about it on tv, to encouraging parents into unethical treatment by a doctor reprimanded for running an illegal practice, to her organisation being barred from further contact with a child after they colluded with a parent in the forced transitioning of that child.

Ask Lily Madigan and... well let Madigan speak for themselves, that's all the exposure they need really to show how utterly fucked up their behavior and views are.

It is so striking once again that TRAs have no shame at all.

So true. I've become so accustomed to all the barefaced lies that pretending to be frightened of Helen Lewis barely registered.

I was glad HL was incensed by that and let everyone know.

If you are promoting a new ideology, a new way to understand what it means to be a woman or a man then surely you should be willing to discuss it.

Exactly that, herFemaleness! It is totally unconvincing.

The thing is, we all know that Bex doesn't really feel unsafe, don't we
That is a very astute observation Hack.

Thank you for finding the Stonewall quote jellyfrizz.

Well. There is so much wrong with Stonewall refusing to share a platform to discuss this topic that I don't know where to begin.

They received 665K from government sources in 2017 and are involved in schools all over the country. Of course they should discuss this.

They are trying to redefine over half of the population in a way that will reduce our rights and protections. The onus is on Stonewall to convince everyone that this is the right way forward. It very much is a debate, whether they like it or not.

Well serf there is no unseeing and no unknowing once the truth is learned. Even if they go back to emotivism, mantras and lies, listeners will be less inclined to unquestioningly swallow it.

Well, too little too late is better than nothing I suppose.

I'm cynical though, and very much expect (in the name of "balance") WH next week will discuss how TWAW no debate, and feature the fantastic joy of transing your 4 year old child...

I was really pleased that Helen Lewis spoke about non-believers being shunned as heretics (my paraphrase).

That is what it's all about. That is why this 'debate' is 'toxic'.

It is not a debate. It is driving out heresy, making people publicly recant their views and enforcing ideology.

I suspect people found the debate pretty toxic during the Spanish Inquisition too.