Woman's Hour Tues 20/11/18 "Why is the current debate about sex and gender so often called “toxic” - we hear from @Bex_Stinson and @helenlewis"

Finally listened. Absolutely loving Jane Garvey.

Oops. One should really not comment if one has heard neither beginning nor end of an interview and does not know who is speaking. Mind you not recognizing names does not help either as that would not have helped.

Sleep deprivation has made me less careful.

Oh here we go.
Along with mumsnet (obviously) women's hour is now responsible for the deaths of transwomen all over the world.

Trans Activists do a terrible job of putting their side across today and yesterday on woman's hour = death of transwomen. Since yesterday......

Erm

The words bat shit and crazy spring to mind.

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/20/burble-burble-intersex-burble-social-construct-burble-burble-trans-women-are-women-sally-hines-on-womans-hour/
Sorry if this has already been posted but it's amazing

The url alone is brilliant 😂

nottakingthisanymore
Exactly! What's it to be TRAs, because it needs to be consistent at the very least? Those goal posts are in a state of permanent shift, even on the basic principles...

I thought the BBC was Woke Central, so why would Bex be scared of going there

Jane Garvey has been absolutely amazing on this as have the gender critical feminists.

I'm just so frustrated that this wasn't aired a month ago when we were all campaigning to raise awareness of the consultation.

Just listening now. My jaw hit the floor when they said that they didn’t want non trans people speaking for trans people. Well quite! What would I know? I’m not trans. How can they not see the double standard of this. Trans women have a whole plethora of experiences that I have ever experienced and never will. So they acknowledge that there are differences between us when it suits them. But it’s absolutely fine to become women’s officers, speak for women in business etc etc. If they concede that I must not speak for them, why do they think they can speak for me !

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/20/burble-burble-intersex-burble-social-construct-burble-burble-trans-women-are-women-sally-hines-on-womans-hour/

Sorry if this has already been posted but it's amazing

I'm more than half-expecting, given the way that on both days the feminists wiped the floor with their TRA opponents, that on the other days the TRAs will drop out, citing BBC bias and hostility and saying they are too fearful to take part in the remaining debates.

Considering how many programmes the BBC have aired on this subject where all the participants were unquestioning supporters of transgenderism I think it would be perfectly fine to replace a baulking Stonewall representative with one of the transexuals who are currently castigated as truscum, and have them debate the issues with someone from ManFriday. Perhaps covering topics such as who is now sheltering under the trans umbrella, sissification porn, the prevalence of AGP in heterosexual men who chose to transition in middle age after benefiting from decades of male privilege to establish themselves in their careers, and if it really is unsafe for MtF transexuals to use the men's facilities which sex should be responsible for changing that situation?

Lol olennas

Well. Helen came across as reasoned, humorous, intelligent and she was fantastic. She clearly didn't need luck.

Bex hiding away from the scary Helen was absolutely ludicrous. The whole thing is looking more and more pathetic as the spotlight shines.

I'm going to start making stickers that say "Here be TERFs" and put them on the door of toilets and other female only spaces, as apparently we are just so damn scary that no TW will dare to come in

only slightly joking

Do you think there was a throwdown and rumble between the Woke and the GC?

Maybe they realised that actually nobody at all really WAS woke and all the ones they thought were were just pretending because they thought THEY were woke and....

Now we just need that to happen in the rest of the world please.

If any of those GC women lurk here, huge round of applause to you.

I've heard that there is a group of GC women at the BBC fighting for better coverage of this issue. So I imagine there's been a bit of a battle going on and that the WH's programmes this week represent a concession. Better late than never.

There must have been a hell of a rebellion in the Woman's Hour offices.

Do you think there was a throwdown and rumble between the Woke and the GC?

There must have been a hell of a rebellion in the Woman's Hour offices.

I can't wait to hear the inside story when all this is over and they are making tv programmes about it all with titles like 'The decade Britain went mad'.

What got me was how hypocritical it was to refuse to come on the show live because there was a danger from feminists while then taking it personally when JG said transwomen were statistically more likely to be violent. That's not okay but it's okay to label all feminists as dangerous.

The TRAs probably mistimed their recent no platforming of Jenni Murray. I doubt it went down well with the WH production team

All I am hearing from Bex is NAMALT.

Feminists: Men as a class represent a threat to the safety of women as a class. Certain spaces and services should remain female-only in order to minimise risk to women and girls.

Decent man: Yep, makes sense.

MRA: Not all men! How dare you suggest that I am a rapist just because I'm a man. Feminists hate men!

Feminists: Transwomen are male and the evidence available suggests that they pose much the same statistical risk of violence as any other male. There are also more and more cases cropping up of men who are clearly predatory using trans identities as a way to access potential victims. So there is no reasonable justification for allowing transwomen to be an exception to the rule of no males in female-only spaces.

Trans activist: But not all transwomen are predatory, how dare you suggest that I am a rapist just because I'm a transwoman. This is literal violence.

The thing is, all feminists, even the most liberal intersectional queer theory loving feminist, will reject NAMALT as a valid argument when it comes from the transparent MRA. But when the male identifies as a woman, suddenly NAMALT is a very persuasive point

This seems like an excellent series. Why the hell wasn't it out out before the GRA consultation ended?
Because, BBC bias.
While I disagree with her on TWAW I think the fact that this was her opening remark was fantastic. It immediately, but almost subconsciously, tells the listener that the person speaking is not an extremist. How’s can she be when she agrees TWAW? To follow on to make sensible, rational, well phrased opinions was excellent and will enable any listeners buying into the “be nice” rhetoric that actually, Helen is being nice but she’s still right. Much as I love Julie Bindel et al Helen will be that much harder to smear when she’s just been so reasonable.

Also thanks to JG.

What a difference it makes when the interviewer isn't doing their special sad voice!

I think making a point about TRAs refusing to turn up is a great idea. Remember Have I Got News for You and the tub of lard? Maybe have a lipstick and some glittery high heels on the chair.

Will listen to this later - any idea how long the segment is?

Re Helen Lewis fence-sitting, I think she really does believe TWAW but is not crazy or stupid enough to believe some of the things that usually go hand in hand with that slogan (sex doesn't exist, women are the oppressors, etc).

If MN had a 'like' button I'd be leaving a trail of hearts all through this thread. Especially for this -

Stonewall's position is the reason for the toxicity. When any group makes demands that society changes on their behalf and strips out rights from other groups and then frames it (as they have done from the outset) as a no debate issue, then any challenge - no matter how reasonable - is always framed as hostile.