Woman's Hour Tues 20/11/18 "Why is the current debate about sex and gender so often called “toxic” - we hear from @Bex_Stinson and @helenlewis"

Jonny Best comment:
twitter.com/JonnnyBest/status/1065387327793635329

embedded link in tweet:
'Please join us in asking Stonewall to reconsider its transgender policies and approach'
(extract)
"Stonewall’s promotion of the concept of 'gender identity’, which has it that a man or woman is anyone (of either sex) who identifies as such, is also undermining the basis of lesbian, gay and bisexual identities as orientated around same-sex attraction. Lesbians in particular are coming under pressure to accept male-bodied trans women into their spaces and as sexual partners.

At the moment, Stonewall is failing in three key ways:

By uncritically adopting a form of transgender politics which undermines the sex-based rights of women and the concept of homosexuality itself
By refusing to recognise the diversity of viewpoints on these issues, including among LGBT people.
By seeking to prevent public debate of these issues by branding as transphobic anyone who questions Stonewall’s current trans policies.
We call on Stonewall to:

Acknowledge that there are a range of valid viewpoints around sex, gender and transgender politics
Acknowledge specifically the conflict that exists between transgenderism and sex-based women’s rights
Commit to fostering an atmosphere of respectful debate, rather than demonising as transphobic those who wish to discuss or dissent from Stonewall’s current policies" (continues)
www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

Thanks for bringing my attention to this, just listened. Helen came across very well. What came across strongly was that Bex simply wasn’t in the room (by their choice).

I wish Jane had moved Bex away from talking about the danger she, Bex, poses personally to the danger transwomen may pose as a group. I thought they were going to go there but then it veered off!

I guess that wasn't the point of the discussion though and hopefully most would have seen through the obvious dodging of the real question and made the link to #NAMALT (not all men are like that) themselves.

The work has been going on quietly, stealthily and utterly ruthlessly behind the scenes, with HUGE success.

Bex Stinson has in fact boasted about this. About not having everyone at the table. Meetings with select people. Certainly not asking the public.

Yes, I think you're right there Captain

And IMO anyone who disregards the clear guidelines published by the Samaritans are the ones who would have blood on their hands

Excellent point @CaptainWarbeck

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there.

Teamed with the whole group-think ideology.. there on social media, ready-made to step into as decscribed by @kesstrel - powerful drivers for a campaign that will aggressively drive it’s own agenda at the expense of anyone perceived as ‘getting in the way’

CaptainWarbeck That's a good point, and I suspect that surprise/ignorance of female experience might well be a contributing factor. Although it's also important, IMO, not to underestimate the emotional high to be had from seeing oneself as a member of a hated but righteous and 'special' vanguard of liberation. And the whole group-think ideology is there on social media, ready-made to step into.

CaptainWarbeck I've only just read your post. I absolutely think you are on to something there

I hope when they discuss sport they have some top sports women. That would peak a few people.
Nicola Adams how far would she get fighting a TW ?

But yesterday we had the supreme irony of Bex Stinson proclaiming their solidarity with women, their support of women and their identification with women while refusing to appear live on Womans Hour and talk to two of the very women they claim be so at one with

I’m not having any of it. The work has been going on quietly, stealthily and utterly ruthlessly behind the scenes, with HUGE success. Now they see that people are finally starting to realise just
what’s happening, tactics have changed to ‘oh, we’re so frightened, we’re so oppressed, we’re so threatened, we fear for our lives.’

Yeah, right.

Seeing as so many men were shocked by the #metoo movement, is it possible that men who transition are just genuinely surprised by their experience of suddenly feeling vulnerable as a transwoman? They have no concept of the fact that women deal with similar societal vulnerability every day, and so see themselves as suddenly the most oppressed of all.

I mean, ideally they could then listen, understand, empathise and work with women but then the male privilege they've been raised to have probably prohibits that.

Just listened to this. Helen and Jane were both 👌🏼
Will be sharing widely

They go right against Samaritan guidelines.

There has been a blanket failure by Trans rights charities, organisations and prominant spokespeople to understand, take seriously and follow Samaritans' guidelines.

Its deeply irresponsible and very concerning.

Well, zero, we all hope. But the frenzied shouts of ‘You’re driving people to suicide’ do concern me. They go right against Samaritan guidelines.

Someone should maybe break it to Joss that Wonens hour is covering this topic all week. I wonder what the body count will be by Friday?

Who will hold the Trans lobby to account?

Not the government - the government is too invested in trans ideology (providing grants, consultancies and funding for training, as well as outsourcing trans polices and directives).

Not academia - the funders of research are too invested in backing 'gender/queer' perspectives and suppressing dissenters

That leaves (1) the press and other media....slowly, slowly unpicking and unpacking here and there and (2) the people affected - women, parents etc - gathering evidence and kicking back.

You would expect the people to have benefitted from public investment and the patronage of government, to be open, transparent and accountable. Instead, they hide. It is outrageous.

I really hope that Woman's Hour and the rest hold the government's feet to the fire over their choice of partners, and the widespread dissemination of a dud belief system.

I think the only way they got such influence was by making sure there was no debate.

They bully. They harass. They smear.

What on earth is Joss Prior going on about? There was no hatred and bigotry on WH today or yesterday. From any of their contributors. Strong disagreement, yes.

Also, surely tagging individuals and accusing them in this way is defamatory?

Re joss prior.

No, just discussing period poverty hun. You experienced that hun?

Helen Lewis wrote this article for the New Statesman April 2018:
'The madness of our gender debate, where feminists defend slapping a 60-year-old woman
It seems swivel-eyed to condemn rhetorical “attacks” and blithely ignore physical ones.'
(extract)
"You would have thought that a feminist getting punched in the face would be reasonably large news – particularly if her attacker had boasted online earlier of wanting to “fuck up” some feminists, comparing them to fascists. But the conviction of the person who attacked 60-year-old Maria MacLachlan at Speakers’ Corner last year didn’t trouble the pages of the Guardian, where I would normally expect to hear about something that veers close to being a hate crime, or the LGBT website Pink News. Why? A clue comes in the fact that MacLachlan was slapped by a 26-year-old transgender woman called Tara Wolf, who explained to the court that MacLachlan was a “TERF” – a term commonly used to stand for “trans exclusionary radical feminist”, ie one who doesn’t believe that trans women are “real” women, but which Wolf defined as a “trans exterminatory radical feminist”.

The implication was that MacLachlan, now 61, wants all transgender people dead – something that seems absolutely barking until you realise this is quite a common accusation in activist spaces. The feminist group Sisters Uncut, which has done great work protesting the closure of domestic violence services, somehow looked at the case and decided that Wolf was the real victim. It used a hashtag – #freetheshewolf – and called for a protest outside Hendon Magistrates’ Court, asking for support for a “trans woman targeted… and harassed by TERFs, transmisogynists and cops”, adding: “Attacks on trans lives will not be tolerated.”

While I have no doubt that Wolf has faced prejudice and bullying due to being trans, it seems swivel-eyed to condemn rhetorical “attacks” and blithely ignore physical ones." (continues)

The Wolf affair also demonstrates another alarming phenomenon: the left getting high on its own supply of self-righteousness. “Some feminists have a different conception of gender to me” gets smudged into “some feminists talk about me in ways that I find offensive” and on to “some feminists are basically Hitler, trying to eradicate people like me”.

Once you reach the last statement, then of course you can slap a woman and still think of yourself as a good person. She wants to kill you; a mere punch is self-defence. (I’m not exaggerating about the language. The Edinburgh branch of Action for Trans Health tweeted the day after the attack: “Punching TERFs is the same as punching Nazis. Fascism must be smashed with the greatest violence to ensure our collective liberation from it.”) Luckily, sanity prevailed in some corners: immediately after the attack, the trans activist Shon Faye tweeted: “Whether this is true or not – physical violence against women (cis or trans) even by women (cis or trans) is unacceptable.” What’s astonishing is that anyone following the debate would know this was a brave thing for her to say." (continues)

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/04/madness-our-gender-debate-where-feminists-defend-slapping-60-year-old

The more tweets like that the clearer the devaluation of the word ‘transphobia’ becomes to the public. Accusing Women’s Hour of having blood on its hands is something most people will be somewhat taken aback by.

They always do that. I've seen people whinging that GC issues are even discussed during "Pride Month".

After all the previous disappointments with coverage on this issue I am always expecting the worst now. However JG is doing a fine job & Helen was great - beautiful sound bites and accessible language. A turning tide? I do hope so.

Here's another sterling piece of hypocrisy.
How DARE you discuss issues that might trigger us on our solemn day of remembrance. We are remembering the dead.
Meanwhile on their own feed.....I'm the goddess of sex workers!!!