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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bob Withers on GMB and This Morning today

133 replies

HandsOffMyRights · 19/11/2018 07:38

Psychoanalyst Bob, who wrote the excellent piece for yesterday's Mail, has just gone head tp head with India W on GMB. I didn't see it, but there's plus one and catch up.

He's on This morning at 10.30.

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R0wantrees · 21/11/2018 18:20
Smile
HandsOffMyRights · 21/11/2018 16:24

I take it all back R0wan!

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R0wantrees · 21/11/2018 08:46

& this is the opinon piece that India Willoughby wrote and was published by Pink News:

(extract)
"We’re heading for a modern day Stonewall riot – unless the government and media clamp down on what has become rampant transphobia.

Transgender people are being bullied and hounded like never before – and we need to be very careful about where all this unfettered hate dressed up as “free speech” is going.

The Sunday Times, Daily Mail and – wait for it – Mumsnet – are hounding trans women in the same way Hitler went about stigmatising Jewish people.

Seriously. That’s no exaggeration." (continues)

I defy anyone to visit Mumsnet right now, look up transgender, and tell me that the vicious and mocking threads about trans people would be allowed about any other demographic. It’s the stuff of pitchforks and lanterns. The same rhetoric about race, religion on sexuality would lead to prosecutions and official condemnation.

Mumsnet CEO Justine Roberts squeals that trans people highlighting the content – including threads which out trans people – to some of the site’s main advertisers is out of order. She describes it as an attack on free speech. This might be a shock to Justine, but trans people have free speech, too.

There’s even a debate about introducing a new trans Section 28, clamping down on educating the public about what transgender is.

Justine is adamant there’s nothing transphobic on Mumsnet. Only reasoned debate. She wants transgender visitors to Mumsnet to be “happy and supported.” It feels reminiscent of when Cruella de Vil opens a home for stray dogs in 101 Dalmatians.

As I say, take a look for yourself. Trans groups are more than happy to debate any subject Justine or her murky corner of the web wants – but the material on the site isn’t a discussion. It’s vicious, nasty persecution

Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.

It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.

I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.”

And I say so-called “feminists” quite deliberately. It’s the point which is paralysing anyone doing anything about the situation. Because these radical groups are hiding under the “feminist” banner, Government and other institutions are reluctant to question them. They don’t want to be perceived as attacking “women’s rights.” (continues)
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/24/india-willoughby-transphobia-opinion-worried-for-my-life-mumsnet/

R0wantrees · 21/11/2018 08:41

I know it's bad when I find myself wishing for Willoughby instead!!!!!

If you read what IW actually says, similar things become apparent.

Dr Nicola Williams on Good Morning Britain interview February 2018:
"Straight off India started to derail the discussion by suggesting women’s fears are about a predatory man dressing as a woman to gain access to women. India was also claiming women are fear-mongering that transwomen are some how a danger to women. No. If you listen to what we say India this is about vulnerable women who want, deserve and need a female-only space to recover and heal from the trauma of male abuse. Like it or not, a woman seeking refuge with her children does not want to be confronted with someone she perceives as male, no matter how they identify. This is about the needs of a woman seeking refuge being prioritised over the needs of a trans-identifying male seeking employment.

Suzanne Reid tries to bring the conversation back to the topic, but India is straight in there again with the old chestnut ‘but what about the lesbians!’ India was now claiming that because some women will be abused by their lesbian partners that women staff should be barred. At last Karen is allowed to speak. “A woman and her lesbian partner would of course not be allowed in the same refuge, but statistically we know that when we are talking about sexual and domestic violence men are much more likely to be the perpetrators and women much more likely to be the victims”.

I often hear the argument thrown in by men that lesbians should be banned from women’s toilets, changing rooms etc etc. This is based on the false premise that women are at risk because both men and lesbian women are sexually attracted to women. Sexual and physical violence against women is not because perpetrators are sexually attracted to them – it is based on power, aggression and dominance – the same power and dominance that is embedded within and encouraged by the patriarchal system we all live in. This is about the imbalance of the male vs female dynamic which women grow up being aware of from early girlhood. Women, particularly if abused by men, are acutely aware of a male’s physical presence, his demeanour, his powerful place within society. It is this – the social conditioning all woman have undergone – the unconscious associations they carry within them – that means that women NEED a male-free space sometimes. That social conditioning affects us all as women – we see it in Karen, the expert in the room no less, as she waits for her turn while the males speak. I felt it inside me as I sat in the studio not wanting to interrupt or come over too aggressively. We see the male privilege that both Piers and India have grown up with pushing them on – allowing them to speak with such confidence on areas they know very little about. If we closed our eyes and just listened – there would be no doubt who was born male and who was born female around that table.

And then India pounces in for the killer blow, turning to Karen who had just dared to interrupt and give her views. India said “you accept that transgender women aren’t men, yeah?” “If I got beaten in a relationship would I be welcome?” Karen replies that India should have access to a specialist refuge for transwomen to an indignant India who declares “A specialist refuge – but they don’t exist”.

Let’s just unpack that for a minute. First, it is already the policy of some shelters, such as Women’s Aid, to allow male-born transwomen refuge on a case-by-case basis. India would not have no where to go. Secondly, how does India think specialised refuge’s for women came into existence? Women campaigned and fought for their existence that’s how. Something that the transgender community can and should be doing for themselves rather than expecting and demanding access to under-funded and over-stretched services that are not designed for their particular needs.

Without pausing to let Karen speak India then crossed a line – a line that has lost h all respect from me and I hope all the women watching – India dared to tell Karen that her website contains a list of crimes committed by men and that this was is a great demonisation.

“I feel really sorry for guys this year – I think they’ve had it really tough”.

India was referring to this; the list of 138 women killed by their male partners or ex-partners last year. This is the annual list that Karen compiles every year with the details of every death in honour of these women. It is the work that told us for the first time that 2-3 woman are killed every week by intimate partners. Yet, all India can see is the vilification of men. I wonder why?" (continues)

fairplayforwomen.com/thank-india-w-showing-us-women-perceive-transwomen-still-male/

Ereshkigal · 21/11/2018 08:19

Great work (again) Orchid! Don't feel you have to but I'd certainly love to read more if you decide to do any more!

HandsOffMyRights · 21/11/2018 06:54

Thanks Orchid.

How anyone could have the audacity to dismiss the 35 per cent stat is beyond me.

I know it's bad when I find myself wishing for Willoughby instead!!!!!

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LuvSmallDogs · 20/11/2018 22:05

Trans people swapping notes online on which clinic to go to and what to say to get hormones goes back at least a decade.

For a wee while I thought I might be trans as a teen so hung out on LJ comms etc. I think my hatred for my sex was a reaction to old CSA trauma getting brought back by all these men and boys harassing me or even groping me because I’d sprouted tits. I used to fantasise about being a man - having sex as a man, being successful as a man, I would look at male catalogue models and daydream of becoming them.

I trawled for FTM sites again when my sister declared she was my brother. The “say this, go here” is way more widespread than it used to be - and it used to get a little pushback too, with some trans people saying “hey, it’s annoying, but don’t lie to your Dr, they’re trying to help”. Now any gatekeeping from Drs is treated as though it were some sort of human rights abuse by TRAs.

AspieAndProud · 20/11/2018 19:59

What he was doing as pointing out that those girls with ROGD had obviously been copying each other's homework.

That’s another parallel with the Satanic abuse scandal. Kids repeating the same claims word for word.

And that was before the Internet.

AspieAndProud · 20/11/2018 19:56

I don’t see how you could look at that disproportionate amount of autistic children referred and not wonder WTF is going on with that. It’s very difficult to avoid a suspicion that at least some of these children are motivated by the wrong reasons, as Bob W suggested.

Like I said on another thread, if black kids were just ten percent more likely to be trans than white kids it would be a major cause for concern. What could be happening in the black community to make black kids want to chemically castrate themselves or demand surgery? What is going on in schools or social services that allows this to happen?

And yet here we are with autistic kids being dozens of times more likely to be referred for transgender reassignment than neurotypical kids and nobody is batting an eye.

R0wantrees · 20/11/2018 19:47

OrchidInTheSun thank you so much. It's so much clearer written down & really important to see what is going on with the different speakers.
Lots of Gin Cake Brew & Flowers for you!

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 20/11/2018 19:43

What is the wolf story? Is it somthing that really happened in Finland or just an analagy.

To understand it in context you need to know that playing in the forest features heavily in Finnish childhoods, since most settlements are surrounded by forest and spending time in the outdoors is a major part of Finnish culture.

So, when adolescent Finnish girls with rapid onset gender dysphoria decide they want hormones they know that they need to come up with a story that will convince the gender clinic that they have always been dysphoric. What Bill actually said was that suspiciously large numbers of them have been presenting at the Finnish gender clinics claiming to have spent most of their childhoods "playing in the forest imagining themselves as male wolves".

Only a person who is hard of thinking would jump to the conclusion that Bill was comparing transgender children to feral children. What he was doing as pointing out that those girls with ROGD had obviously been copying each other's homework. They are probably too young to get their ideas from foreign language websites, and the wolf in the forest story is very probably something they've seen on a Finnish youtube or tumblr site.

Chardeemacdennis1 · 20/11/2018 19:21

What is the wolf story? Is it somthing that really happened in Finland or just an analagy.

Sorry if I'm being dumb, I just watched the this morning interview and they didn't let Bob finish the story.

Datun · 20/11/2018 18:48

Munroe cannot sustain an argument. Nor can India Willoughby. It's just posturing and playing to the gallery.

And this will not work when it comes to children.

The fact they have no idea just means the wheels are coming off that much quicker.

IntoTheDeep · 20/11/2018 18:42

The National Autistic Society estimates that about 1.1% of the UK population has autism, they’ve based that on data from the 2011 census.

If 35% of the children referred to Tavistock have autism, then there’s a hugely disproportionate amount of autistic children being referred.

I don’t see how you could look at that disproportionate amount of autistic children referred and not wonder WTF is going on with that. It’s very difficult to avoid a suspicion that at least some of these children are motivated by the wrong reasons, as Bob W suggested.

LikeDust · 20/11/2018 17:59

It does seem a bit weird to have Munroe Bergdorf, India Willoughby and Sarah Brown up against Bob Withers.

The only one who is a parent is India Willoughby and none of them have any expertise in child development, autism, psychology or anything else relevant.

Why are they being pitted against Bob Withers? Wouldn't it make more sense to have someone who works with LGBT teens or a representative of Mermaids or a specialist in autistic kids?

OrchidInTheSun · 20/11/2018 17:03

Transcribing it was better. I didn't have to look so much - I was listening!

KatVonGulag · 20/11/2018 16:13

orchid again Flowers
I wish I'd not watched it. I wish I could have just read it. Munroe flick pout is really just so irritating
It's the interrupting of people. And the smugness.

OrchidInTheSun · 20/11/2018 15:35

Latin - I particularly enjoyed MB pointing out that 35% isn't a majority like a killer point GrinGrinGrin

Grauniad · 20/11/2018 15:05

Sadly I think some people WILL hear the bit about wolf children and take away the idea that Bob W just compared trans children to wolves, because MB kept interrupting his point.

After all, Linda Bellos was prosecuted for a quip that she would 'take her glasses off and...' -- making her obviously much more dangerous in some people's eyes than young 6 ft male persons who actually thump older female ones.

Did Bob W appear again later? I'm sure I saw a mention of it but haven't seen the clip.

ProfessoressWoland · 20/11/2018 15:05

Thanks Orchid Flowers

So Munroe is saying let's ignore concerned parents and teachers, medical practitioners, statistics, anything reported in the Mail, and gays - because what do they know? - and let's just celebrate trans, because trans trumps everything!
(A bit flippant perhaps, but so was she.)

AnyOtherPerson · 20/11/2018 14:53

”I found this really concerning because she was saying that trans kids are popular like it’s some kind of abomination, like it’s a bad thing. When it’s better that trans kids are popular and that they’re doted on by their peers and encouraged to be who they are by their peers”

Monroe has this all wrong. It’s awful that children are bullied for being different. Much better if the are accepted and treated equally by their peers.

But if you become automatically popular - doted on, to use M’s terminology - for being trans, then there’s potential active encouragement to transition for any child who feels out of place. The risk is they aren’t “encouraged to be who they are” but instead are encouraged to transition.

It’s also intensely frustrating as Munroe seems unable to listen. Instead M is just bursting to speak and misses/ignores the point consistently.

FloralBunting · 20/11/2018 14:48

Yes, I can see that becoming a new drop in misdirection bit of old bollocks that gets repeated 'Transphobes compare trans kids to feral children'!!' Fecking idiot.

hackmum · 20/11/2018 14:45

Yes, thanks, Orchid. I actually find these pieces too painful to watch, so it's good to be able to read them. Lots of LOLS at MB misunderstanding the point about wolves. Not the sharpest tool in the box.

LatinForTelly · 20/11/2018 14:44

Sorry meant to bold the first bit which is a quote of the transcription from Orchid.

LatinForTelly · 20/11/2018 14:43

*P2 – final point here. Many trans children are also autistic which leads them to question their gender identity because of this and the tavi has reported that 35% of children who are referred to the centre from 2011 have been autistic.
M – but how many autistic people aren’t transgender as well? We need to look at the balance there. And also the majority aren’t autistic either. I think the two can be apart, but they can be together as well. *

Thanks for that, Orchid. Munroe needs to brush up on Munroe's stats skills if Munroe thinks 35% representation of autistic children at the Tavistock referrals reflects the number of autistic children in the general population. Hmm Strange to mention the point which refutes your argument rather than proves it, unless you're a bit dim.

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