Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

We do need the expertise of people who have been boys on how to keep boys safe.

And nice trivializing of behaviour btw

Yes, I've noticed this - boys' behaviour has been minimised and trivialised and girls' objections have been similarly so.

And nice trivializing of behaviour btw

This is why boys grow up doing this shit to girks

But there's no way to know which 9 year olds are safe and which aren't.

All the obes who aren't had their parents saying the same things. " he's just a boy"

They don't go from.innocebt 6 year olds to sexual predators overnight.

It's how you teach them..how you raise them. And teaching them they have the right to override boundries like that must be a huge contributor

Ok yes you're quite right Almond, let's just defer to the men for their expertise about how to keep boys safe . Seriously?! I meant we don't need male 'expertise' fgs. They are the problem and if we wait for them to find a solution we'll be waiting a long time.

As for solutions, there have already been a number of sensible mitigations suggested on this thread, but clearly there is no simple straightforward way of fixing things. As for 'having a go', we are having a discussion. I am allowed to disagree with people whose suggested solution is 'let the boys suck it up, we as adult women feel unsafe so why shouldn't they'. If there's anyone having a go, it's the person upthread who reported the OP for being fucking 'goady' to even ask the question about what we as women can do to keep our boys safe, and suggesting that it isn't a feminist issue because it's about boys.

And yes, women's rights are being rolled back. That is a related but separate problem to boys being unsafe in the men's. Sometimes, yes, in some situations that means that a prepubescent boy might need to use the women's loos, if the alternative puts him at immediate risk of harm. You are really suggesting that you want your average 9yo to use the men's loos in a busy central railway station alone because he'd make you feel unsafe?! Clearly around adolescence - 11-12, possibly some 10yos but not all - is the grey area, but just because 6yos sometimes pull girls pants down in the playground does not make your average 9yo a 'threat' to women in the way that a teenage or adult male is.

An excellent post, Lexi! You win teh intarwebs for today!

Another thing - I do get that there are single mothers out there, but there are a lot who are not and I do get somewhat tired of many making excuses for why their men-folk cannot take their children swimming or clothes shopping or to the toilet.

Thays exactly it lexi

Isn't part of the reason that this is a feminist issue that toilet considerations are a factor that influences their ability to get out and about with their children but also that it affects their ability to not always be the primary carer.

The safety of the gents toilets can be used as an excuse for men to not do certain tasks. Not wanting to take their daughter out alone, or leaving mum to change all the kids for swimming.

If more fathers took their children out alone, if more fathers were stay at home parents or primary carers, or just took more responsibility then more parents with children would be in the gents making them safer for other children. If there were baby changing units in the gents rather than just the ladies then again more more family friendly uses of the gents but also easier for men to pull their weight and less excuses.

How many times do you see a family out and mum takes all the kids to the ladies and dad goes in alone? Too often.

At least if more families were in the gents you could try to send your DS in when a dad goes in with kids and there would hopefully be safe people around in case of trouble.

But the gents aren't going to get safer until men have a good enough reason for forcing the issue. Maybe taking their kids in there would crystallize the issue for them.

Wtf do you suggest then frog

It took centuries for women to get this far. It's being rolled back at an alarming rate and there are still parts of the world where girls cabt go to school without getting shot at. That's if they aren't drowned at birth.

The only way anythung win change in our lifetime is of men speak up.

Tell then , yes this is our life ..welcome to our world

So how about you stop having a go at people who have the same sodding problem you do and offer up a solution. Other than men being held to account

How are you proposing we answer your questions frog soup, now that you’ve declared you don’t need expertise?!

No one here wants boys to be harmed. But the solution isn't to have boys of 9 and above in women's toilets and changing rooms.

The solution is about assessing the male facilities and only using them when you consider them safe.

I think it was an excellent point made upthread about designing male toilets to allow mothers access to help their sons.

"even though it's only temporary and for many of you who have husbands partners or older children it's not even all the time in that temporary window."

So what is this, then? Basically if you have a partner or an older child your child stays safe. If not, suck it up, boys, you can just have a taste of 'lifelong caution'. If I've read that wrong, fine, but I don't believe I have.

Nobody is saying that frog soup.

What?! We don't need expertise, we need ways of keeping our boys safe when there are no male friends or relatives around! The irony of people arguing on a feminist board that women essentially need to be in the company of a man at all times to ensure that their children remain safe from violence!

Has anyone been saying that it's appropriate to bring tweens/early teens into the women's toilets? I didn't think so but might have missed some posts.

Would be helpful, for those who do agree it is a feminist issue for women's lives to be constrained by the need to care for their dependents, to think about other options.

How could men offer to help in a way that isn't even more worrying?

E.g. occasionally men have noticed me loitering around the entrance as they go in and have helpfully popped back to say "he's over by the sinks". They do not offer to retrieve, just offer info.

Boys grow up to be men, so yes, men are going to be the ones with the expertise on what works best for boys.

"the life long caution etc that girls have to go by with where they go and what they do is some how not good enough for the boys"

This is arrant nonsense. The point is that we don't expose girls to the risk of an all-male adult space. You think it's ok for boys to be put in that dangerous position (and essentially suck it up, by 'being cautious') because women have to be cautious in a variety of entirely different situations?! That's pretty offensive, it's like you are saying small boys need a taste of the fear that adult women will experience.

In any case, we are talking prepubescent children here. I don't know about you, but my girls certainly aren't being taught to be more careful than my boys while they are still children. They all have to have regard for their personal safety. When they come to be out and about independently, then the message needs to be differentiated, but small girls are not at higher risk of harm than boys when accompanied by a parent. Except, of course, if they are a male child in the company of only their mother, and needing the loo. But apparently, that's ok because it's only sometimes, and they can always be out and about with their dads instead . Jesus wept, and people are claiming that this isn't a feminist issue!

I think the implication of some posts has definitely been that, or at least that it's not feminism's problem if boys are unsafe in the loos, it's up to men to sort it out. I strongly disagree. It's a feminist concern if as a mother I'm unable to keep some of my children safe when I am out and about.

No one has said they don't deserve protection

We have said the solution is not bringing them into the ladies pasta certain age as that makes them unsafe for everyone.

For sone reason the life long caution etc that girls have to go by with where they go and what they do is some how not good enough for the boys even though it's only temporary and for many of you who have husbands partners or older children it's not even all the time in that temporary window.

IfnotnowBernard

So who on this thread are you accusing of thinking pre pubescent boys don't need the same protection as girls?

IfNotNowBernard:
"..it does upset me that pre pubescent boys are clearly seen by some as not in need of the same protection as girls."

That is a fucking lie and you know it! Read the fucking thread. Strangely enough, we seem to have lots of mothers on this thread, aware of the issues, and trying to discuss and work things out for the best, for our children. We are concerned for our male children as well as our female children.

And why? Because of male violence. It's still male violence that is the overwhelming problem.

There isn’t any way of giving the boys the same protection as the girls. It’s not a question of whether or not it should be accomplished, but of how. Nobody has put forward a solution other than chaperoning.

Mostly it is making sure that changing room visits are only with a trusted male adult
Well, yes, that sounds nice, but what of the thousands of single mothers out there with only help from older female relatives..?
Obviously there is no perfect solution, and we do what is appropriate, but it does upset me that pre pubescent boys are clearly seen by some as not in need of the same protection as girls.

If we are talking abput the risks of being attacked in public toilets then boys are not at less risk at secondary school age (or certainly not til they're through puberty) as girls are in the relative safety of the women's toilet and boys are in the men's.

For my sons I try and always send them in together or - if that's not possible - choose busy toilets in places like restaurants and hotels and shops rather than "public" toilets.

Sorry not trying to make light of the issue, but I would think boys are less at risk than girls particularly by about secondary age.

Possibly in general (I don’t know the stats for childhood grooming and abuse but I am assuming girls are at higher risk eg the grooming gangs), but in the toilets, given that men are the major perpetrators of abuse, unaccompanied boys are at risk.