Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

Shit, that sounds terrifying YetAnotherSpartacus!

As I’ve said, I’m trying to encourage DS to use public toilets independently, despite my anxiety about how vulnerable he seems. But these two incidents did make me question my judgement; especially the Paddington one where I was left feeling like a terrible mother, and DS was confused and worried that he’d done something wrong.

That doesn't mean you can write off inappropriate behaviour because they may or may not "get it"

It means it takes longer to teach perhaps or to sink in. The problem.os the parents that trivialize the behaviour to begin with. You can't "get" something when others feel it's not important enough to teach in the first place

Sounds like cases of exceptions proving rules above.

Maybe girls would benefit more from being given more independence such as you are advocating for boys? Perhaps rather than take them into the toilets with us, because we can, we should just wait outside? Let all 8 year old girls go to the toilet on their own. After all, they've been doing it for years at school and apparently boys are capable of doing it and obviously the ladies toilet is safe, what with no men being in there

Happens where I go swimming with no issues. Girls get changed by themselves with no drama.

Giles but if boys are slower to develop (up to 2 yrs on average as per my previous post), how can our expectations of them be the same? We need to acknowledge sex and gender based differences (as well as individual differences) and try to work provide appropriate support for all children rather than just expect them to meet standards which could be impossible for them.

I don't know how this could ever work in reality...?

I think Weetabix has some fair points. Particularly regarding overtly sexual behaviour from young children. That should raise red flags for anybody.

As for boys being the main instigators of showing porn to other children - I beg to differ- we had an (well actually numerous) incidents within neighbourhood of a 14 yr old girl showing very hardcore porn (including CSA) to other kids. This was a very troubled girl whom in my understanding was struggling in high school with bullying from her peers. I became a bit of a sounding board for her dramas (including domestic violence in her home) I did my best to offer her a helping hand. All the while unaware of how she was behaving to the younger children (including my own). DS1 (11) and other boy (12) came and spoke to me about what was happening. God knows how she manipulated them but they were scared to say anything initially for fear of not being believed. My son felt he really had to say something before she started trying to show it to the younger kids DS2(6) another girl (9). The 12 yr old was so frightened to tell his parents he begged me to do it for him. Which I did. We had a meeting as a parent group, in which it came out that a peer of hers (14) father had discovered porn downloaded on a device in their home (by this girl) whom he barred from his home. Without a word of warning to other parents. Thanks fuckwit.

Anyway have probably rambled on too long about this, but I got my son to write a statement about what occurred (which truly was one of the hardest things I've done as was very distressing for him) I also wrote one myself documenting my interactions and observations of her behaviour. I took these to the police and also made a call to family services. Because despite being really pissed about her behaviour - I understood it was a massive red flag for CSA.

So while statistically boys may appear to be the likely culprits. In modern society girls can also do it. At the end of the day imo the problem lies in the tsunami of porn out there, and the creeps that lurk on the internet grooming and luring children in.

A few months ago I got a proper earful from the toilet attendant at Paddington Station for letting DS go into the gents without me. He marched him out to me (fortunately after DS had already used the loo, so my 20p didn’t go to waste)

This is outing so I won't say where it happened and off topic, but I had a toilet attendant take my money and then 'shut up shop', locking me in. I was terrified because the desk was at the front and between the men's and women's toilets and I didn't know who else was in there. My shouts for help were met with hostility until someone said - 'no one knows where she is and we don't have a key - so please just be quiet' (lots of other people were shouting in a language I didn't understand). To make matters worse, I had the squits as a result of food poisoning so my partner thought nothing of me being in there for nearly 30 minutes and was having a quiet smoke outside. What really rankled was that when I was finally set free, with a glare from the ticket woman, I immediately needed to go again.

But really, at Paddington Station he should have been in no danger. Ditto Berlin.

You can not seriously have got to adult hood and not seen or lived through different expectations of behaviour ?

And the low expectations of behaviour are allowing them to grow older thinking stuff is ok when it isn't.

Who has low expectations of behaviour? A PP above actually says that the only time it has happened to her was when two young girls crawled under her cubicle. What does this mean for their future development?

I feel like the toilet situation shows how both women and children (of both sexes) are given a raw deal, which is fairly consistent with the rest of society.

In the sense that when they get older and people still insist on bringing them into women's changing rooms, that you are also teaching them that it's ok to override girls boundries..

So firstly how old are you talking about when you say older?

Secondly, many young boys that I know don't want go into the ladies. It's actually their mums making them go which actually is a case of women overriding boys' boundaries isn't it?

I wonder how much damage is being done to some boys growing up in the certain knowledge that their own mothers despise the most fundamental part of them - their sex?

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In the sense that when they get older and people still insist on bringing them into women's changing rooms, that you are also teaching them that it's ok to override girls boundries...And the low expectations of behaviour are allowing them to grow older thinking stuff is ok when it isn't.

I don't think it's a bad thing to ask ourselves if the ways people are trying to keep boys safe is simultaneously partly responsible for also causing the problem

Really? In what way. How about how we keep girls safe - does that cause any problems?

Maybe girls would benefit more from being given more independence such as you are advocating for boys? Perhaps rather than take them into the toilets with us, because we can, we should just wait outside? Let all 8 year old girls go to the toilet on their own. After all, they've been doing it for years at school and apparently boys are capable of doing it and obviously the ladies toilet is safe, what with no men being in there.

A few months ago I got a proper earful from the toilet attendant at Paddington Station for letting DS go into the gents without me. He marched him out to me (fortunately after DS had already used the loo, so my 20p didn’t go to waste) and told me I was crazy, letting a little boy go in because it was “full or perverts” I had a similar experience in Berlin with a (female) toilet attendant who refused to let DS go in the gents alone and insisted I take him into the ladies. It’s frustrating, because I don’t want DS to be fearful (cautious and sensible, of course!) of going in alone, as the days of it being socially acceptable for him to come in with me are numbered.

I wish I’d had my wits about me ask at what age boys can use the loos at Paddington or Alexanderplatz unsupervised.

I'm not campaigning for boys to become collateral damage

I don't think it's a bad thing to ask ourselves if the ways people are trying to keep boys safe is simultaneously partly responsible for also causing the problem

Gileswithachainsaw

I know, it's shocking but the very vast majority of those cases involved children aged 10 and over. They only broke them down to over 10 and under 10 so I would imagine that the biggest number happened in teenagers.

I doubt any of them involved children aged 6 - 9 using a public toilet with their mum.

The issue of how to keep young boys safe when using public toilets is absolutely not the same issue as sexual assaults by children on children. It is quite bizarre how determined you are to insist that young boys become collateral damage in whatever war you are fighting.

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell from context. If not - sorry.

Well I have a son who is still alive at 8 so yes, that was sarcasm. I am able to worry about both safety in toilets and other dangers, and equip my child for both.

rightreckoner sorry - by shared communal spaces, I am talking about changing rooms and bathrooms.

I am sorry to hear about your experience. I know full well that most girls and women have experienced abuse and sexual harassment. In fact, I don't know a single women I've asked who doesn't have a similar story. I was referring to children being abused under these specific circumstances, and stranger abduction. Boys need to be taught not to do this shit, and respect other peoples' boundaries (girls, too, but that's less of a problem).

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/09/child-on-child-sexual-assaults-soar-police-figures-reveal

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Abuse of children in shared communal spaces is vanishly rare, so much so that it always makes headlines

This just isn't true. I don't know a woman who hasn't had an experience -often as a girl - at the hands of the creepy man at the swimming pool/on the bus/in the park.

Before I was 12 I had been flashed at and groped by strangers. This is not vanishingly rare - it's vanishingly rare for girls to avoid it.

It is vanishingly rare for children to be kidnapped/killed by strangers and that may be what you are thinking of. Sexual assault though - an every day experience.

A timely reminder to me to teach road safety and behaviour around fire and matches, which up to now I had completely neglected.

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell from context. If not - sorry.

I was making a point about the relative importance of these two issues. Parents tend to over-emphasise stranger danger (which of course should be taught) which gives children a skewed view of the the actual probablity of dangers they face in life.

As a parent I have an over-exagerrated fear of stranger danger. When my child was very late home, my fear was immediatley abduction, not an accident. As a child, by biggest fear was being eaten by a monster.

I once had 2 small girls crawling under my cubical door in public toilets. They were about 6 or 7, and completely ignored me when I shouted “Oi! Don’t do that!”. I was changing a bloody pad at the time and they crawled right over my feet!

I do worry about this. DS is 8, very slightly built and has ASD and ADHD, and just seems so small and vulnerable to me. I’m sure he will at 9 too. However, he’s keen to go into the gents alone, so in most places I grit my teeth and let him get on with it. He’s also pretty good at waiting outside the ladies for DD and me.

Gileswithachainsaw

Actually what I am saying is that I place the safety of a child above the right to privacy of an adult. But that if you insist that a male child should be accompanied by a female relative into the mens toilet, thus violating the right to privacy that you are so worried about of users of that facility then you have to accept that both ways.

And you might well be saying a 9 year old boy is fine in the gents but a PP said that it should be 6 years and older.

I really do not think that an 8 or 9 year old boy, accompanied by his mum, poses any safety risk to the patrons of a ladies toilet. Do post statistics to prove me wrong though.

And I would be very worried that any 6 or 7 year old boy asking classmates for a blow job has actually been abused himself. I wouldn't be too quick to label him as a perpetrator.

I agree Weetabix. It is sad that these children are not prioritised and either their safety is put at risk and/or normal family life has to be adjusted to ensure that when young boys with their mothers are out of the house, appropriate, safe facilities are available. On a website for parents, that we should have to repeatedly justify that there are concerns is madness.

DS is 25th centile and very short. In all likelihood, I will take him in with me for a bit longer because he doesn't look anywhere near his age at the moment.

And you basically just confessed you plave more importance on protecting the privacy if men and boys by berating someone suggesting using the men's